The Church Hurt You... Now What?

Have you experienced church hurt or spiritual abuse and wondered if healing is even possible?

In this deeply compassionate conversation, licensed trauma therapists Tabitha Westbrook and Colleen Ramser explore what happens after spiritual trauma—and how survivors can begin rebuilding trust in themselves, their faith, and God without rushing the healing process. Drawing from Colleen's new book, The Shattered Soul, they discuss why healing often happens through "breadcrumbs instead of a whole loaf," how trauma impacts our relationship with faith, and why gentleness—not pressure—is essential for lasting restoration.

Together they unpack spiritual enmeshment, parts work, the dark night of the soul, cynicism, healthy church community, and what it means to disentangle harmful beliefs while continuing the lifelong process of sanctification. Whether you've experienced spiritual abuse, coercive control, or simply feel disconnected from your faith after painful church experiences, this conversation offers practical wisdom, validation, and hope.

If this episode encouraged you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who may need this message today.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

📘 The Shattered Soul: Restoring Wholeness and Rebuilding Your Faith After Spiritual Trauma by Colleen Ramser:  ➡️ https://amzn.to/3TyVgWD

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

Join a vibrant community that takes you deeper into topics with a private podcast feed available on your fave podcast platform, helpful tools served right to your inbox, and quarterly Zoom calls to bring it all together! Learn more and join now -  https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/upcoming-events-groups/trauma-healing-support-online/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

📖 Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi

📩 Connect with Tabitha & The Journey and The Process:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com

Subscribe to our YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this blog post here.

Transcript

Welcome And Purpose Of The Show

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome back to this week's episode of Hey Tabby, and I am excited. I am unnaturally excited if I'm being honest, because we are here with my friend Colleen Ramser. Colleen is a licensed therapist. She is a speaker, an author, and a podcaster, specializing in trauma, particularly spiritual abuse, domestic abuse, and complex trauma. She's an EMDR certified therapist and she's trained in somatic and internal family systems therapies. She brings over 15 years of experience in ministry and clinical practice to this work. Colleen frequently trains and consults with faith leaders and mental health clinicians on survivor care and addressing systemic harm. She's also

Meet Colleen And The New Book

SPEAKER_00 1:56

the author of The Shattered Soul: Restoring Wholeness and Rebuilding Your Faith After Spiritual Trauma. We are going to talk so much about this today. As a survivor of trauma, Colleen is a compassionate witness on the journey, bringing not only her clinical expertise, but also a deep knowledge of dark nights and the breath of new mercies. Colleen lives in Louisville, Kentucky with her husband and her kiddos. Colleen, welcome. I am so excited that you are here.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

I know this just feels like we're just, you know, phone call, just hanging out. Like, hey, how's it going, Tabby? Hey, Tabby.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah. Absolutely. So the book came out super recently as of this recording, and I have been watching it be born into the world over time. And it has been such a delight to watch you walk through this process. What was the hardest part for you in the writing of this book?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So for your listeners, like when Tabby says that she's walked with me in this process, it's like for real. Like the tears, she she was one of a handful that I would call when I was just about to pull my hair out. And having, you know, Tabby, you've you've written a book as well. So you know that this process is very intense. Uh and so I think one of the hardest things for me, and I've been a little bit more open about it publicly, is kind of coming face to face with ADHD and writing and organizing content that was, you know, I had this, I had this sort

ADHD And The Hard Work Writing

SPEAKER_02 3:31

of feeling of the book, and I had these ideas about the book and what I wanted to say. And so it was challenging for me to organize that in a way that flowed, that felt like, you know, uh somebody's reading it rather than sitting with me. I wanted to kind of, you know, to help people to feel like they were sitting with me in the book. But that process from what you say with your mouth and then what you read, it's different. Yeah. So I would say that was that if I'm really honest, like that was really challenging for me. But they uh, you know, they were patient with me. I I, you know, I worked with a wonderful editor. I would say another hard thing about writing this was, uh yeah, and I've actually said this on another podcast, was the fact that I wanted so badly to attune with others and not having someone in front of me was incredibly difficult because I wanted to, you know, it's like in when you're in the office with a client, you're able to take their unique story and attune to them so specifically and tailor everything that you say so that the experience is, you know, wonderful. With a book, I've got hundreds of people in my mind, you know, and so that was challenging as well to, you know, I just took a handful of clients that I just held dear and imagined them in front of me. And, you know, what I might say after maybe something that was a little more challenging in the book. Like, what would I say next? And so it it was, you know, I had a deep desire for the book to feel like you're I'm sitting with you, like you can feel my presence deeply. Uh, and so, you know, you were on my launch team, and when someone said that it felt like you like I'm sitting there with them, I was like, yes, this is what I wanted. This is exactly what I wanted. And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's gonna be people that it's it's not their cup of tea, but at least, you know, to some degree, that was that came across in the book. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah. And that I think is something people don't think about, right? You and I are both so used to talking to humans across from us that talking to the greater population when we don't get to see their faces and know their individual stories is a little bit tough. But, you know, your book definitely is like sitting with you. I mean, I've known you for a while, and so it, you know, as I read it, not only did I hear your voice, but like here I heard your and felt your presence in it, which was so delightful. And I think that's one of the things that people are gonna be able to feel as they read it and engage with the material in it. What was your favorite part of writing this book?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Like favorite chapter or favorite part in the process? Yeah, aspect of it. Aspect. That's so broad. Help me be more specific. Aspect meaning like process or content? Either one. Okay. I know that didn't help you at all, did it? Right, I know, right? I don't know. I was like, that's let's see. My favorite aspect. Oh gosh. Uh, if I had to pick one aspect that was my favorite to the process, I mean, it definitely would be seeing the impact. Like that just, you know, it just it makes all of

Cynicism And Dark Night Language

SPEAKER_02 7:00

the hours and the sweat and the tears worth it. You know, and and it, it, it just like warms my soul because to me, then it feels like all of that hard work is on mission. Like it's doing what it what I had hoped it would. And so I think that that aspect of the process has been so life-giving to me, you know. I enjoyed writing by myself, you know, some some parts of that, the the solitude was kind of fun, you know, go off to some little, you know, cabin or place to write, you know, whatever. And that just felt like really nice for my introverted side, you know. But I would say, like I said, that the just it going out into the world and getting the messages and people saying like this, this has been so deeply impactful. So that and you know, I would say the you know, the favorite part in the book, gosh, I that's hard too. I feel like I mean, maybe it's a combination between because I, you know, the cynicism part, because I really enjoyed being able to give language to that, because I think so many people struggle with it, but they don't talk about it. And I also enjoyed some of the creative aspects, like the the end of the book where I bring in the velveteen rabbit. So that was enjoyable to be able to like be creative in that way, to kind of paint a picture of something imaginative that helped people to connect to, you know, hope. And so I did enjoy, I mean, I don't know, sounds kind of dark and morbid, but I enjoyed writing about um the dark night of the soul as well. I think that that's something that not a lot of people talk about and being able to kind of go to those depths um and give language there. Yeah, I mean, there's so many other things, but I would say those were kind of like my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, I think you know, my favorite chapter. Gosh, there were actually multiple, but my favoritist of the favorites was probably your chapter on cynicism because it is not something that gets a lot of air time, but is something that is desperately needed because it's felt, right? So your book covers the the aftermath of spiritual abuse and spiritual trauma and how you heal. And that's one of the things that I think is super great about it is it covers like here's what happened. And it it makes so much sense why you can't just, you know, go whole hog and just be like, it's fine, I'll be fine, and go right back to church in the practices that maybe you were used to in the past, right? There has to be a process of that. And you use the languaging of like breadcrumbs versus a whole loaf. So talk a little bit about like all of that.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, it was interesting. Uh, I don't remember

Breadcrumb Faith After Spiritual Trauma

SPEAKER_02 9:56

when that concept came to my mind, but you know, I I think at one point I was thinking about daily bread, you know, and it's like, oh, you know, you you do your your spiritual disciplines and you get your daily bread. And, you know, and I and I just remember thinking to myself, I mean, this for me it happened almost 10 years ago. I mean, there's been things that I've experienced over the last 10 years that I don't really talk about in the book. But I just remember feeling like in that time, like I could not digest certain things in my faith. Like it just felt like a loaf. Like, that's the best the image that came to mind was like somebody shoving a loaf through my throat. And I thought about how, you know, even as a therapist, you know, a lot of people will end up in my office and are not just not, they haven't just gone through spiritual trauma and abuse, but then they've also gone through like a retraumatization where someone has tried to force them into coming back to their faith or shamed them because they can't do certain things and shoved scripture down their throat, you know, and so that's where this concept of digestion, you know, spiritual digestion and how after we've experienced spiritual trauma and abuse, we can't digest the way we used to. You know, I think about like, you know, when you've whether you've had like a procedure or maybe you got sick and you know, you've got a stomach bug, like you can't just go the next day and eat whatever you want. Like if you had a whole pizza, like you're probably gonna get sick. And so this idea of titration, pendulation, small doses, you know, not forcing your way to complete recovery of faith, but not abandoning it altogether. I love this space in between. And I think that's where a lot of the healing happens, but it happens in small doses. As you and I know with trauma, it's not you can't force your way forward, you can't white knuckle your way through it. It's counterproductive to do it that way. But if you can be patient with yourself, allow yourself, allow yourself the permission to say, I can only have a breadcrumb today, and that's enough. Like I really think that that's going to be more sustainable than a whole loaf.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yes. Absolutely. And it's it very much mirrors how Jesus was with people. Right. Right. You know, he was never like, get it together, you know, except to the Pharisees. He had some things to say to them. But you know, uh, but with those who were hurting and had been harmed, he was so gentle. And it was like, here, here is a breadcrumb, right? You know, and he wasn't shoving loaves down people's throats. He was so gentle and kind. And I think he knows, you know, especially when we've had deep spiritual trauma, that it is gonna take a while to heal. And he's aware of that. He knows how we're made, he made us. Right, right, right. You know, one of the things that you do so well in this book, besides give us real practical exercises, right? Because you are very embodied, and the way that this is written is embodied is you sprinkle them throughout so that you're not going a very long time without, hey, try this. Tell me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah. So I when I wrote the book, I actually, this is probably like too many layers, you know, that people maybe are not even interested in. But when I wrote the book, I had titration in mind. So like when I was writing a chapter, like I feel like I naturally am this way. Like if you were an attune, like as a therapist, somebody who attunes all day long to somebody's body, to their skin changes, like what they're saying, you know, throughout the entire book, that's kind of what I was, you know, trying to convey and do as well, is to, you know, through small doses, kind of like, here's a little bit of a nugget, here's a little challenge, like here's a nudge, but then let's let's kind of anchor ourselves a little, you know. So throughout the entire book, I was really trying to keep someone's body in mind that, you know, like even I like again, you got the advantage of being on the launch team and hearing even more about this process for me. But the chapter on unburdening, I knew was going to be tipping a little further into a nudge for people. And I I wrestled with that chapter. I it was like, it was like, you know, you're just kind of like, okay, I'm gonna say the thing, and here we go. Like, and and hopefully it lands well, but not having the person in front of me. And so through even throughout that chapter, I really tried to bring it back to, and you can pause, and you don't have to force your way forward. Like this is the long game. Like, this is this is not a one and done overnight, you know, download this book, get through it, and now you're healed. It I really wanted to invite people, even throughout each chapter, every word, you know, every paragraph, every practice into this sort of gracious, compassionate space in between. You don't have to rush forward.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah. And the chapter on unburdening and all of that information is so helpful. It felt tender to me as I read it. Like, just like, oh, you know, and it it reminded me of the verse in Romans about God's kindness bringing us, you know, to repentance and to places and all of that. Like, you know, that it's just it's a tender, gentle place, you know. And I also like your use of like parts work in this book. And I think it makes it accessible and it also helps pull us out of the trauma all or nothing mindset, which is what happens for so many who have been traumatized, is like it is dichotomous thinking, it is all or nothing, and parts work helps you not do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Right. Yeah, and I think, you know, like some people I know it can make them a little bit uncomfortable, like, oh, I have all of these parts in me. And and does it mean that we're so serious severely divided or that we're we're like addressing some weird voodoo,

Parts Work And Gentle Unburdening

SPEAKER_02 16:21

you know, uh voodoo out there or you know, whatever. And and I I think it's it really, you know, I think about this has been quoted a lot with internal family systems, but when David says, like, why so downcast my soul? And even scripture talks about like double-mindedness, dividedness. And I and I think it's it's all it's doing is speaking to the complexities of our body, the complexities of who we are. You know, in one sentence, I can be calm and courageous and resilient. You know, you've experienced me, we're good friends. So it's like, you know, I can say, you know, things that are very inspirational, and then in another day feel really down and, you know, my sad part is there, or maybe there's an anxious part that's that's you know, really activated in that day. And so I think what I'm hoping to invite people into is welcoming the fact that we're complex. Like we don't have to have it all figured out. There's many different parts of us, different uh ways of interacting that we we have. And I wanted to give people the opportunity to acknowledge those parts, to see how those parts show up in their healing journey, and especially to see how they are they're trying really hard to protect us, you know. My my anxious academic part is trying really hard to make sure that I never experience shame again. You know, it means well, but it can go haywire, and you've seen that, you know, which like where I can spend hours upon hours trying to do something. And so, what does it look like for me to engage that little girl in my story that was embarrassed at school? What's it look like for the people who read my book to have compassion for the, you know, maybe 15-year-old who, you know, was was engaging with a youth pastor who misused his power. Or the woman who's in a marriage, you know, how what does it look like to uh have compassion for that younger self that didn't know what she didn't know when we when she entered that marriage? I mean, I could just chill as just saying that out loud because I think that it looks at a deeper part of our story. It just gives a framework to do that. And I believe it gives a framework to invite, I say the divine in the book, just because I know some people can get triggered with Christ or God. You know, I wanted to kind of even paint a different imagination upon, you know, the interaction and witness of God in their story. Um, and some people may not be ready for that. And I I even say that in that chapter. It's like, you know, even though we are inviting the spirit in, inviting divine witness, you might not be ready even today for that. And that's okay. And this is not a one and done.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, again, it takes it out of that whole dichotomous space where it's either all this or all that, you know, which is self-protective, right? When we can have that dichotomy, it almost feels safer, but it's not actually safer. Right. And so that's really hard. And you're like, wait a second. But to be able to bless the parts of us that are struggling or that are trying to protect and you know, know how they got there, right? It's been my experience, and I I think we see this in scripture that harshness never changes anything.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

If hellfire and brimstone worked, man, churches would do it all the time. Some still do, I don't recommend it. But you know, but like it is again like what is the what is the goodness of God, right? And that doesn't mean that there aren't structures and rules and rhythms and things in scripture that we need to take, you know, good heed of, right? But of course, when those things have been weaponized against us, we need to be able to come back in bits and pieces, in parts. And you also talk about spiritual enmeshment, which I thought was such a good conversation in the book. Let's let's talk about that. What is spiritual enmeshment?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah. You know, I kind of was birthed out of my own journey, you know, talking about it in the book, which, you know, to some degree, I think, like when we first become believers, there is a level of like, we're kind of following someone and being discipled by someone. And there's some normalcy to that where we're trying to follow Christ as so-and-so as following Christ and learn and grow. And I envision this sort of like when you've got like a young child, like they can't really choose their parents to some degree. You know, like they're in this environment, they they're

Spiritual Enmeshment Versus Healthy Community

SPEAKER_02 22:43

young and they're learning. And and and I think sometimes this can kind of carry over into the church, where young believers are learning, they're trying to grow in their relationship with God. And you either have someone who's like discipling in such a way that is empowering them through the Holy Spirit and not powering over them and getting them to conform or coercing them into theology, you know, you, or you have someone who is really trying to help someone, you know, do the hard work of, you know, discovering scripture for themselves, you know, and and reading scripture and coming to conclusions themselves. So spiritual enmeshment, I really wanted to highlight how often this occurs, at least what I see, and how we become so enmeshed with someone else and their beliefs and their doctrine, whether it's healthy or not, that we can't even sort of identify for ourselves our own personal relationship with God, our own personal convictions, our conclusions, like what we've kind of come to. So sometimes even people will ask me, well, what do you believe about this? What do you believe about, you know, women as pastors, for example? And I'm really hesitant to give a particular answer because I want people to do the work themselves, to figure this out for themselves, to come to their own. Conclusions. Now, I don't think that this is where I talk about there's spiritual enmeshment, there's differentiation, but there's also interdependence. So it's not all or nothing. It's not, I'm just all on my own on an island, and I don't take any influence from anyone, but I'm discerning. I'm I'm thinking through, you know, am I getting, am I losing my spiritual identity in this church and in this marriage or with this pastor, whoever this is, am I able to say, you know, I'm not sure how I believe about that, what I think about that or believe about that? Um, you know, or am I just simply feeling like I have to conform and feeling the coercion that goes along with it? But I do think that we are made for community. Like I want to make sure like people understand that. Like there is this interesting dynamic of, you know, differentiation, feeling like a self spiritually, my identity is in Christ, and enmeshment where I lose myself in the identity of someone else and what they tell me who Christ is and theology and doctrine is, and the Bible says. But there's also this, but we're supposed to kind of dance together and we're made to dance together. I would say we get to choose who we're gonna dance with. You know, who are we gonna allow to have that kind of influence in our lives? And so I'm inviting people not just into being your own sort of spiritual self, but also let's dance together. I think that it's important to be together and to learn from each other and to, you know, I mean, had I not, I think I talk about this in the book, had I not been interdependent in what I call this sort of holy gathering, I would have never came to Christ, you know, and I think that's how we come to Christ. And so, yeah, enmeshment is sort of this unhealthy version, I think, of spirituality.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah, absolutely. There was a time in my life when I uh would have said I was enmeshed in my church for sure, because I was there what morning and evening. They used to actually joke that they should get me a cot and build a shower because I was there so much. You needed your van then. I did need my van then, but it was so unhealthy. First of all, the environment was very coercively controlling. And I thought my worth and value and my pleasingness to God was in the service that I performed because they were weaponizing that for people. And that's not the interdependence that you talk about in the book, right? That is the enmeshment you talk about. My identity is in this place with these people doing it this way, you know, and it has to exactly be this way. I remember people getting into arguments about when the tribulation would happen. And if you grew up in church, you have heard some of those arguments. I told somebody today I'm pan-tribulationist, it'll all pan out in the end because like I do not need to think about that too hard. But, you know, there are things that can be really divisive, and it's like, well, you have to believe this way. And I have become a person who thinks about sanctification as rolling over the tenets of scripture in my brain and learning and growing with the wisdom that God gives me. Yes. And that has to have a place in our healthy spirituality. So when we are interdependent, I can have my own thoughts. We can wrestle with tough theological points. We can do all of those things together. And we can still love each other. And I think, especially in this day and age, oh my goodness, like it can be really hard. And I think that your book is such a gift in this space to that, because it reminds us that we can still be a healthy community of believers and wrestle with things and think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions and things like that. I was actually just meeting uh with a friend who's also an elder at the church I go to, and we were talking about some of those things and talking about things that, you know, in spaces that I'm not sure we fully agree, and that's okay. And it was a beautiful, life-giving conversation because we're both relatively healthy human beings, you know, who genuinely care.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah. Right. Well, and I think I say this in the book as a little phrase that I remember I said was like, I think it was in the loyal, no, it's untwisting theology, uh, where I mention, you know, if somebody has to force you toward their way, then whose way is it? Right. You know, like it is it the spirit or is it something else? Because I think even, you know, I talked about this in that chapter as well. Like people can speak a whole lot of truth, like things that are in the Bible that are true, you know. But if it's not carried by love, if there's not this relational aspect because God is a relation of God, even with his truth, you know, then, you know, I don't, I don't know. Like maybe, maybe it's not something you should pay attention to. I was actually reading, um, I have to look it up. I was reading in James this morning. Um, I love James. It's one of my favorite Bibles or favorite books of the Bible. And I did a little post on it, and it was James 3, 17

Wisdom Tests And Coercion Red Flags

SPEAKER_02 29:35

through 18. I was meditating on it. Let me uh I want to pull it up just so I can read it for you. And it was just it was so good because uh, you know, when I think about wisdom and receiving with I this I should have put this in my book because it's such a great verse as well. But it says, But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure, so it's not gonna cause us to sin, then peace loving, so it's gonna produce peace. It's considerate of others, not you know, if somebody's coming to you and this is wisdom, they're considering the whole picture, submissive, and I think in some translations is yielding, so they're not forcing it. It's full of mercy, you know, so it's not judgmental and it's good fruit. There's good fruits, fruits of the spirit is coming from. It's it's not impartial and it's sincere. And so I I I just think about how often people come and they are like, you know, I have a word from God for you, and God told me that you're supposed to do this, or you're supposed to stay in that awful marriage, or you're supposed to continue to conform to this theology. And that wisdom is nowhere in the like what I just read.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Right. Yeah, it would not conform to the standard that you just read for wisdom. And I think about it this way, right? Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Right. Or in your eyeballs, or like a paper cut.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Right. So I think it's, you know, I can know a thing. And this is where the English language falls short, but can I know a thing? Can I know the one? Right, you know, and and really looking at then how does this conform to the one another's of scripture as well? Right. So telling someone to stay in a destructive marriage that is abusive and coercively controlling is not wisdom. That's your idolatry of marriage, if I'm being real honest. And I know that's a point statement. Somebody's gonna be listening to this and go, oh gosh. But you know, really examining your heart and being willing to hold things with an open hand, right? And say, all right, Lord, I want to grow and learn in this space and I want to not have rigidity. And I find with a lot of trauma survivors, rigidity feels safe because it's like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. And and so helping people lean into that, like we don't have to be rigid and we can be faithful, and we can definitely grow and get back to the point where we're having daily bread instead of daily crumbs or like semi-weekly crumbs or whatever it is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think uh I really with this book wanted to give people just really a place to heal, but also how can you recognize the red flags moving forward? Like, how can you think about doctrine and theology and your own spirituality in a way that is holistic, wholeself, uh, and and moving forward, able to kind of because I remember I think about a time when I went through this process myself and someone, I think I talk about this in the book briefly, but someone was kind of really kind of trying to push patriarchy in a conversation with me. And uh, you know, they were an influential person. And I remember like, you know, just feeling so emboldened and saying, you know what, I just don't believe that way anymore. Like I don't, I don't believe in such harsh headship. And I don't think that that's what scripture says or what God is calling us to. And I remember feeling it feeling so good to just be like, and I don't really care what you have to say about that. So, you know, smear my name or do whatever you're gonna do, but I don't really care because betraying that part of myself and what I really believed was like worse. Like it was just like, I can't live in this belief anymore. Like this, this is not what I believe to be of who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah. And and there will be things as we go through our lifetime that as the Lord helps us, and sometimes there's a disentangling. So I don't typically use the word deconstruction. I prefer disentangling because I'm not right completely, you know, destroying things. Sometimes we need to, right, right, but I'm pulling out the things that really aren't of God. And that will happen for the rest of our lives. And I always think when people are like, oh my God, everybody's just so much about deconstruction. I'm like, it's called sanctification, bro. Like, but that is scriptural. Like we really do want to do that. There are things that we should, we should wrestle with these things for the rest of forever until we go home because that's healthy.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

You know, it's interesting. I, you know, because you and I are like kind of observing things all the time. And so I, you know, it's interesting. I think that, you know, like in like five to ten years, we're gonna find another word that we use, and then we're gonna be like, ah, we don't want to use that word anymore. Or we'll like, so I think part of even like our nature as God has created

Disentangling Beliefs After Trauma

SPEAKER_02 35:57

us is to rearrange and build back up and then rearrange and try to build something back up that's even prettier, you know, or to like reorganize. And and so I think that it's only natural that we kind of go through this, like like you said, this sanctification process of we're churning over and over again, like who we are, like our our lives, like what we've been through, our story, we're continuing to turn over and turn over and turn over in so many different ways. And so in the book, I think that I use the word slightly disconstruction, but what I get at is, and you and I know this with trauma, is I say that whether we want to admit to it or not, when you go through trauma, when you experience trauma, there is a fragmentation that happens with your sense of self, your life, your identity, everything you thought you knew just gets rearranged and turned upside down. And so by its nature, by essence, I said in the book that trauma, you're already deconstructed. You know, like there's already this process of fragmentation that's happened. And from that point on, you're you're beginning in some version of reconstruction and reorganizing and sort of relearning about who you are, who Jesus is, who the church is, how you want to show up, you know. And so I think it's it it I think it's funny, I guess, you know, being being a therapist for so long, it's interesting to watch how like, you know, certain words kind of come to us and then we are we are deconstructing those things and reconstructing them and rethinking about them. And I think it's all part of how God's wired us.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Absolutely. And what would you say to the person who says, Well, Colleen, well, Tabitha, I shouldn't have had to have been hurt in the first place. I shouldn't have to reconstruct.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah, yeah. I would say, gosh, I think I would sit for a moment in silence and let that be for a second and not offer a quick answer. Um, but recognizing and acknowledging the grief that comes along with that, you know, like there's there's a lot in my life that I wish that I never had to experience. And it doesn't feel fair. Like it feels so unfair uh that, you know, myself, you, others are having to go through the hard work of healing and having to show up, you know, whether it's with a book or in therapy or the

Grief Over Harm And Finding Glimmers

SPEAKER_02 38:34

many countless hours of tears and heartache and working through trauma triggers and trauma symptoms. Like, I get it, I'm angry. You know, like I I'm like, I wish I didn't have to do that too. Like I really wish that none of us had to go through that dark night, that anger, that cynicism, that feeling far away from Jesus, that feeling of disorientation. I it's like, yes, yes, I wish you and I didn't have to have have to go through it. And yet we had to. And and there's a grief and an acknowledgement of the sadness of that. Uh, you know, so I wouldn't offer a quick answer, but I think that's something that I would offer to that person is acknowledgement and validation of the frustration, the anger, the grief surrounding that.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that answer because that's probably very much what I would also do. Yeah. Because it is a hard thing and it doesn't feel fair. And this is what I tell my clients after I've sat silent for a while. Um, you know, you're not responsible for the trash on your front porch, but you are responsible to clean it up. And and that's a hard reality at times, but there are tender ways to clean, and you can invite people into that cleaning process and invite people into the healing process. And you know, I've said this a number of times that I would never wish the fact that I'm a survivor of things. I would never wish out on anyone. I wish it wasn't my story. But I've met the best people in these spaces that are authentic, they love Jesus, they are working so hard to be amazing and to heal, and then they're helping others. Like I wouldn't trade it. Do I wish it happened? Yeah. No. No. But am I so glad for who I know because of it? Yes. And I think those are the things you talk about looking for the good. You talk about finding the glimmers in your book. And that is part of the path to healing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

You know, it's interesting. Uh I just definitely, whoever's listening to this, I want to just kind of like say, like, I see you if there's no bow. You know, like I see you if there's no Bible bow. And also, I want to share real quick a story of um some close friends through like a book party for me this past weekend. And I did a little excerpt from the book, and I read um the story of Susan and overcoming silence. And so that that particular client rearranged some details, but I have someone in mind who like was just very dear to me and watching her process. Uh, and so I read the excerpt from the book, and I just I kind of lost, I just lost it. There's this large group of a group of friends and pastors who are there, and they're, you know, listening to me share this excerpt from the book. And I look up and I actually see a friend who saw me 10 years ago, and all the darkness and all the things that I went through, and I just lost it. And I I ended the reading by talking a little bit about how this maybe that's why this is such like the my favorite part is seeing the impact, because I know there's not necessarily a bow, but it definitely makes it a little more worth it. You know, like like not seeing 10 years ago what God was gonna do. And I and I know that some people can receive that in a very cliche way. This was my story, and I know it doesn't happen for everyone. And there wasn't really necessarily a bow for me, but there was a feeling in that moment when I read and I saw people's faces, and I've experienced the impact so far that made me kind of pause and go, wow, like I would have never seen this coming. Like I would have never seen this book doing this or my suffering doing this. Um, so it did make it a little bit more digestible.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Absolutely. Yeah. And and I love that because there there isn't always a bow, right? Like not this side of heaven, honestly. Right. Um sometimes we get bows, sometimes we get little bows. They're not the big bows that we hope for. You know, we get bow light, if you will. Yeah, bow light. Bow light. Yeah, yeah. But we but there's goodness to be found. Um sometimes we have to fight for it, which super sucks. I wish it wasn't that way. And I think, you know, both you and I would probably say that, that we we wish it wasn't that way and our hearts grieve that this book is even necessary. Yeah, I'm grateful that we have it. I'm I'm so grateful. And the somatic practices in it are some of my favorite. In fact, I love it so much, as you are well aware, that I ordered copies from, you know, to have at both my offices so that my team could have access to it. And I'm like, you know, use these things. There's a whole bunch of tools. And, you know, I would just commend that to everybody that, you know, there is goodness to be found. There's goodness to be found in the pages of this book. I think that so many people will feel echoes of their story and and and feel like the withness of you in that, you know, and and that tender presence. Um and hopefully also feel God's tenderness toward them in these pages as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

I do feel like it's quite an offering. Like, and I so far I've heard that people feel like it is very helpful. And so that's been really encouraging.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Absolutely. Colleen, you're a gift to this world, you're a gift to my life. And I am so glad that we got to have you on. Hey Tabby. And for everybody who's like, how do I get the book? Well, I'm so glad you asked. I will have all of Colleen's information and a link to her book in the show notes. So please go grab it. Also, I have it on Good Authority that she read her own audio book. So, you know, I encourage you to listen to that. It's one of my favorite things. I I always love it when the authors read their own books because you you know what you meant by what you said. And so you have all the inflections and all the right places. So I encourage folks, go get this book and you know, on whatever platform is most comfortable for you, but engage with it and do the practices. You know, she has it written out in there as invitations, which is one of my favorite words. If you listen to Hey Tabby, you know that I love invitations because you can accept them or

Where To Get The Book And Subscribe

SPEAKER_00 45:14

decline them as you need. And so we encourage you, accept the invitations. Colleen, thank you so much for being here and hanging out with us today. What a gift!

SPEAKER_02 45:25

It's it's lovely to be with you. It really is like just hanging out with a good friend.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

So absolutely. Well, I am grateful for our listeners. If you liked this podcast, first of all, share it with everybody and their cat. Secondly, please make sure to like and subscribe so that it goes out to the people that need it. That really does help us out a lot for the podcasts. And we will see you again next time here on Hey Tabby. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.