Hey Tabi!

Why Talking About Trauma Isn't Enough

• Tabitha • Season 4 • Episode 1

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Many people assume healing happens simply by talking about what happened. But what if insight alone isn't enough?

In this conversation, I sit down with Matt Wenger, Executive Clinical Director at Begin Again Institute, to explore why experiential therapies like psychodrama often help people access places that traditional talk therapy cannot. We discuss how trauma is stored in the body, why emotional healing requires lived experiences—not just intellectual understanding—and how group therapy creates powerful opportunities for transformation.

Whether you're recovering from childhood trauma, betrayal trauma, compulsive sexual behavior, addiction, or simply trying to understand yourself more deeply, this conversation offers practical insight into how real healing happens through safety, connection, vulnerability, and corrective emotional experiences.

In this episode we discuss:
• What psychodrama actually is
• Why trauma isn't just stored in your memories
• Why many people stay emotionally stuck despite years of therapy
• How group therapy accelerates healing
• Why vulnerability rewires the brain
• The connection between addiction and unresolved trauma
• Why emotional courage—not emotional avoidance—creates lasting freedom

If you've ever wondered why you understand your trauma intellectually but still feel trapped by it emotionally, this conversation is for you.

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At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

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 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

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Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_03

So there is a term called psychodrama. And I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners have not heard that before. But today we are going to talk about that. Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off-limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, and I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. I'm actually here with someone I'm quite fond of. He is the executive clinical director of Begin Again Institute. Begin Again is up in Boulder, Colorado, and they do 14-day intensives for men who are struggling with compulsive sexual behavior. They also do women's betrayal trauma intensives. Are those also 14 days?

SPEAKER_00

Those are six, six days. Six days.

SPEAKER_03

So the six day, which I think you guys are the only group I know of that does the betrayal trauma intensives, which is super cool.

SPEAKER_00

They they have them at Daring too.

SPEAKER_03

Do they?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I'd send everybody to you. No, but no no shade to Daring. Um, but I'm friends with Matt. But I'm really excited to have Matt here today. Thank you for being on Hey Tabby with me.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for having me. I know we've been talking about it for a long time, so we have. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_03

You know, we have Matt and I think we've seen each other at every conference. Now, if you're watching this on YouTube, you're gonna go, this is a really different vibe than the normal Hey Tabby. And that's because at the conference that we're at, which is the Hope for Healing conference by Lit Path, we are given the gift of having a podcasting space. And so we absolutely took advantage of that. Like, dude, let's record in person. So we decided to do that. And I'm super grateful that we got to.

SPEAKER_00

So much more fun.

SPEAKER_03

Way more fun. Way cooler. What is psychodrama?

SPEAKER_00

That's a great question. Um, psychodrama is an externalization of an internal process or a dynamic between someone and an individual, another individual, or someone and a part of themselves, or uh a set of feelings or thoughts. So it's an externalization of an internal process. So how I relate to my family of origin, how I relate to thoughts or feelings, or addiction, or anything like that. We we bring it from out of

What Psychodrama Actually Is

SPEAKER_00

the body or out of the mind into a three-dimensional uh space where the person can interact with it. And you know, the process, the person, the feeling. And it is able to access a part of relational healing on part of our brain that is built for connection. Uh, and so the the healing happens in that space in a way that's different than um other modalities, and it can be really exciting.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's really cool. And it feels very embodied.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like it feels like it wouldn't be one of those therapy modes that you could easily stay up in your head.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, there's no way to do it in your head because you're involving literally like you're involving your whole body, right? And most people have all these kind of defenses against that sort of thing where they can um uh you know think things away or have certain, you know, set responses to things. But when you're like physically engaged with it in a relational context where I have to deal with this in some way, it takes people off guard. And so their kind of reflexive responses won't work. You know, and uh and and you can find I I call it a side door when I talk about especially men's work. You can't go in the front door, the front door's locked to whatever emotional space you're trying to get into. Um, you know, it's got a padlock, it's got a chain lock, it's got the whole deal, right? And so I can try to kick down that door as a therapist, but I mean, there's gonna be a ton of resistance there, and we might not like how that goes. But if we can find a side door, a way into their emotional system, a way into their thoughts and feelings that are more vulnerable, um, it'll it it has to surprise them too. Now, I I think clients that are less resistant than addicts typically are, um, can do psychodrama and they're prepared for it and they can still get a lot out of it. But we like to kind of um uh use it as a uh almost a surprise. Because I can't I can't build up my defenses to it. One of the easiest defenses, obviously, for psychodrama is humor.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right? Like this is ridiculous. This person isn't my grandma, and like, hey grandma, you know, like it's right. They they try to disarm that. But but we have rules, right? Of like, hey, we're not gonna make fun of this process, we're not gonna make fun of each other. There's no room for jokes here. This is a way in which we run from our work. We're not gonna run, we're gonna head right for it. So it's really useful in men's work and it's relational, like you said, so you can't um can't dodge it. It's it's it it it engages the whole body, the whole system. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Would you say, and I know my experience, because I've done some of this in the work that I do with folks, would you say that it makes it almost because you you mentioned the element of surprise with it? It's a little bit unusual.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But it's also very disarming in some ways, right? Because you can't use intellectualism, you can't use humor in a way, you know, that you might normally to deflect and push away and all of those things. But you can, you know, like I I think you're mentioning like, oh yeah, hi, grandma, whatever, right? Yeah. But there is a thing when you lean into it, even just a tiny little bit, your body goes, Oh, we're going here. And you almost can't stop what happens next.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is odd like that. And so when I first learned about it in grad

The Side Door Past Defenses

SPEAKER_00

school, we watched a video about psychodrama. And I thought it was the dumbest, stupid, most performative thing I'd ever seen. Like obviously I didn't know what I was talking about because I'm in grad school and I'm still learning, right? But I thought it was ridiculous. But when I actually got into the work of relational healing and depth trauma work, engaging with the imagination of the client is often this really just fertile area that, like you said, they're not even prepared to go in. They they they I don't talk to my mom like this. I don't talk, I don't have my dad and I would never have a conversation. Well, let's have a conversation today. Yeah what would a conversation today look like? Oh, it'd be it'd be weird to talk to my dad about this sort of thing. Well, is weird just another word for scary?

unknown

Dad.

SPEAKER_00

And we're like, oh fucking, and so all of a sudden we're having this brought emotionally weighted conversation with someone who, you know, feels kind of like pick somebody in the group that feels kind of like your dad. And there's all sorts of therapy work to be done there, right? Like, how do I identify that and why that person and not this one? And you know, it's it's I love that. I I find in just for me in intensive work, and this isn't true for everybody, but talk therapy is is so boring to me because you can do that runaround. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

And stay distant.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And give it to engage with it. The thing that moved the needle for me too was um Do you remember the movie Inception?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, we don't uh uh incept our clients, right? Don't put ideas in their head, but um they had this scene from the film where if you like if you put a safe in the dream in the architecture of the dream, then the then the person you're trying to steal from will automatically put their gardened secrets in that safe subconsciously, right? Um I think that we started doing that with uh our psychodrama, where we'd have them pick a prop. We have all these like kind of uh garage sale, you know, uh thrift store kind of things that seem emblematic in some way. We'd have them pick an object and like pick an object that reminds you of dad. Well, what they're doing when they do that is they're they're imbuing that object with meaning for them.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And then tell me why you picked that. And all of a sudden now they're talking about that and they're talking about how they feel about that, and they're telling me about why this object reminds them of dad, and it's hurt or sadness or anger. And now I'm gonna hand that to this person who's playing my dad in this drama. So now not only am I there relationally, but I've all I've imbued this process with meaning, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's filled the safe, so to speak. And now all of a sudden, all of that rawness, all of that relationship is now like being held in that space. And you didn't do that as a therapist. They brought the meaning to it. And that is the that's the juicy stuff of change. When you can when they're when you're not you're not like pulling to that one. Yeah, they're they're they're with you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And we're gonna see where this goes, right? And yeah, good therapy tends to go to good places and eventually, you know, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's amazing. It's such an it's a unique way to work. I don't know a ton of people that use it. You know, I I know a lot of people that do EMDR and brain spotting and all kinds of other things. I know in our practice we tend to do things very similar, you know, to this. And probably why you and I get along really well, actually. I think we therapize pretty similarly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but like using like the whole self and these things that represent like these places that are really hard to intellectually touch.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

They're really hard for people to lean into because it hasn't been safe, right? Like I can think of a lot of clients who need to say something to their abusive ex, you know, but they can't just call up their abusive ex and say all that they should not. It would be a bad idea, you know. But there are things they need to say about this is the way that you hurt me and this is what happened to me and the way myself was stolen in this place. And yeah, you know, to be able to walk that out with another human who isn't that person that can represent that person and objects that are meaningful, yeah, you know, that you can ascribe meaning to, that's huge, you know? Like that's that's the fernal ground of healing for people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and the funny thing is that a lot of people don't want to do it at first because of what you're describing. I don't want to call this person, I shouldn't call this person, this person isn't in my life anymore. And they'll say stuff like, what good is it to do? They're dead, or they're out of my life, or you know, what's the point? You're gonna try to reconcile this relationship with this person, and uh and it what's the point of that? Right, for whatever reason. And that's be I love that because what they're saying to you is by committing to this modality, this experience that we're gonna have,

Props, Meaning, And The “Safe”

SPEAKER_00

I somewhere inside of me believe that change in this relationship is going to happen or possible, right? Which is actually a deeper belief in the process than I have, you know, right because they're not physically here. But the reality is that we're not changing the dynamic with that person. Right. We're changing the way that we feel about the dynamic. It's internal, right? I don't need the person to actually be in the room. It's how I feel and how I interact within this relationship, whether it be to a person or a thing or a behavior or a part of myself, however, whatever it is that you're dramatizing, right? That it it's it's an inside job. And they think it has to do with changing this other person, which is fundamental to addiction and control, is that how do I get this other person to change their behavior when in reality I'm the one that that is needs to change? So we get to do that without giving them a lecture about it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You know, and yeah, and and it's a deeper way because it's experiential, right? Yeah. Like change happens when we experience ourselves differently than you know, the way that we have been. And I know in working with the folks who struggle with addiction, like they at first especially do not think there's an other side and they don't know what it's sitting on top of nine times out of ten.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and if they do have a clue that there might be some traumatic experiences there, they're like, I have been avoiding this my whole life. I'd like to continue. I recognize it as trashing everything that I have, but this seems way scarier. Shouldn't we run from this? Right. But in some ways, like leaning in with the psychodrama, which is again like sort of an outside the box way of doing it, a very embodied way of doing it. It's disarming, it's deeper work, and it makes it scary and less scary at the same time, right? Like it's that both and of it. Yeah. Because it's like I'm doing something, especially for people who are very rigid.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and for me, a lot of survivors come to my practice who like they've never been allowed to be fully themselves. They've never been allowed to fully use their voice. You know, they're learning how, hopefully. But to do a psychodrama and to say, like, let's lean into this place together. What would it be like if you did? What if, you know, what represents this for you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I I've I I believe in this kind of theory of of healing. It's kind of EFT, you know, emotion-focused therapy, where uh where we're gonna create an exception. Like I don't normally do this in these relationships, but we're gonna do it differently this time. And we'll see how that feels. See the this wound that hasn't quite closed, like what what happens to that place when we do it differently this time. And then and you get all that resistance up front. But when we've actually gone through that process wherever it takes us, um, there is a real change. And I am not quite related to that thing the same way anymore because there's this exception that has been um encountered, and I can't deny that. It lives in my memory now. So there's something different that I can do. And I've, you know, guys will tell me, you know, I I I feel like I'm I I'm have a new memory of that experience. Like this is, you know, um, we call it like a corrective emotional experience, right? We're replaying this thing that went poorly, but this time we're gonna have a better outcome. And you know, that completes the the healing cycle there. That's what so much of therapy is that, right? Like a half done healing, right? Like I survived this event, but it's the pain is not finished working itself through. It's half finished, right? So we had to go back to the pain, which nobody wants to do, but resolve it all the way back. And I'm invincible. I I made it through that moment. I what didn't destroy me. I'm still here. Little wounded self, we made it, you know? Yeah. And then yeah, that's it's a it's a beautiful thing to be a part of.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and just so for people listening and watching, you know, it doesn't mean that the bad things didn't suck. Right? Like I think there's always it used to irritate me no to no end. Um, I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but I'm gonna uh when they'd be like, you need to get to a zero on the subjective units of distress. And it's like, man, some things aren't a zero, right? Like sexual being sexually abused as a child is never gonna be a zero. You cannot ever have that be a neutral feeling. Like it's gonna be like, yes, that sucked, and I'd rather it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But at the same time, it doesn't own you. Yeah. Right. So even if it's a one or a two on so for those listening and watching, it's a zero to ten scale where zero is nothing or neutral and ten is oh my god, that's the worst thing ever. Um, and you know, everybody was taught like get it to a zero, and it's like that's also bypassing someone's reality in some ways, but you can have a different relationship to it where it's like, yes, this is part of my story, but it is not my story. Yeah, it's not the totality of my story.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, I think that's what trauma is in some ways, is that it has the power to tell me who I am and it has the power to tell me what the world is like.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And completing the healing of a traumatic experience, it does take away that kind of power. Like this is always going to be a sad, painful thing that happened to me, but now I get to have my identity back. I get to experience the world in a new way. When we encounter trauma as young people, and we have this idea that the world is dangerous and it's not safe to be explored and experienced, then there's a

Corrective Emotional Experiences

SPEAKER_00

part of me that is gonna remain on guard in so many of my spaces that's gonna keep me from living a full, happy, and healthy life. I'm I'm always this isn't safe, and I might be enjoying myself, but uh, I'm kind of over here. And uh, you know, that's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There's a message that that trauma told me about myself. I'm weak, I'm not perfect, I'm not good enough, I'm you know, I'm bad or whatever, inadequate, or whatever the word is. And then there's also this belief that we have about the world that it's unsafe or dangerous, or I reach out and people hurt me, and I reach out and people project me, and and we get to undo that work. And it's that's never gonna happen by encountering up here the intellectual parts. It's gonna be in the experience, it's gonna be in the deep places, you know, that kind of work.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I know I've heard you say before that the water will run where the ditch is dug. And that's from the neural pathway perspective. And one of the things I often say in my own practice is we are going to dig a new channel. Sometimes it's like a teaspoon in the Grand Canyon wall and it goes real slow, but we are going to dig a new channel, but you also have to backfill that old one.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that is through the experience of, you know, experiencing yourself differently. And I would imagine that this is really powerful in a group where people are instead of being turned away from, which might be their the person's overall experience, like everybody's turned away from me. Everyone is like not wanted to be part of my story, but then they're relating within the group and people aren't turning their faces away.

SPEAKER_00

That is why I think group therapy is the best intervention for addiction recovery. Because in every wounded place, young people that develop addictions later in life, or as young people, they were they had to figure it out on their own. Right. I have all of this hurt and pain, and I have to deal with it on my own. What we do to in the corrective uh experience of that is I have all this hurt and pain, and people move closer to me.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Whether that's other people in the group or it's their response to a younger wounded self, like we're we're gonna close the distance, we're gonna move closer. Um there's also this element too of when you're in group therapy and you get to be a part of someone else's healing process, like you gain something from that if you're paying attention. If you're playing their abusive father or you're playing the their them the wounded self, is you know, a lot of times we'll have guys play another guy's wounded little boy, right? And they're watching themselves experience these these memories or these relationships and trying to better understand their relationship to their own pain. Well, you talk to that guy after the drama is over, and he's just like, oh my gosh, I like I was actually sitting in this pain, and I realized that maybe for the first time that that I'm not alone in my pain. Like if mine is that and his is that, then you know, it just opens up this new door of empathy for them, or you know, having to play your Abusive father was really, really hard, and I hated it. And it also gave me a lot of compassion for what he went through. And you know, my dad was like that sometimes, and I didn't like that didn't click for me. Or I'm worried that I might have be I might be becoming that. And I hated the way that that felt. And I'm I'm I'm not always aware of what I do when I get angry, but in that moment I was play acting and I could see the effect it was having. And because they're not actually getting angry, they're playing someone who's angry, right? And so they have this observational stance to themselves. Like the breakthroughs are like dominoes. This guy's having a huge emotional moment, and then we take a break, and this guy over here is crying because of what he said, and now we're over here with this guy. And it's it's it's a you know, what do they call that? The dominoes, you know, that click into all the machines and the marble falls down. A root gold. Yeah, it's a root gold machine of therapy, like around the room and watching people experience these things and being a part of it. And um yeah, and it's something that you real that you can only really do well in a group, right? Yeah. Because you gotta usually have a couple of people that you're relating to. You can do it in one-on-one therapy, maybe with props or like an empty chair kind of thing, but uh yeah, there's nothing like doing it in group therapy.

SPEAKER_03

Groups are such a very valuable way of getting support and healing. I think that people underestimate them and think like, why am I going to have to put on pants and go see other people? I swear that's like the millennial vibe. Like, why do I have to put on pants? I don't want to put on pants. Why do you want me to do that at like 5 p.m.? Yeah. You know? But like when you're in those spaces that are with other people, even if it's an online group, there are still a lot of things you can do. But if you can do in person where you can do some of these tactile hands-on things, it is very healing because like you're having this moment all together.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and and everybody's experiencing it a little bit differently through our own lenses, but you know, it it's profound. You know, and I know I have felt like the weight of things break open in those spaces where you're like, man, we just did some big stuff. And and then even to process that, like, what was that like for everybody? Even the people not actively participating are still actively participating.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_03

You know, like man, when like so-and-so was acting like the abuser, like I wanted to punch him in the face, and I had like realized what's going on in me for that, or like I was really angry or I felt scared and I wanted a fawn or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

Every time, yeah. In when I we do a lot of group work at beginning again, and I always tell folks if you can find an in-person therapy group once you leave, like that's gold. You should definitely be a part of it. Because the the the the other thing about group that that people don't understand is that when I'm in a one-on-one therapy session, I can hold secrets, I can mess with the dynamic between me and the therapist, I can control that or try to, or just give them certain information. You know, like there's so many ways in which people that are in um, you know, addiction or denial or whatever can can mess with that process. But when you bring somebody into a group, there's a different system that comes online. It's not just my relationship, it's my social system that's coming online. Right. And now I how I relate to the group is it's a lot of ways a reflection or a microcosm of how I relate to everyone in my life, and everyone can feel it, and you can feel it, and it's almost like you're dealing with uh-oh, a more vulnerable part of who they are because no one feels

Why Group Therapy Hits Deeper

SPEAKER_00

perfectly comfortable in groups all of the time, and so that sense of vulnerability, and then when someone um allows the process to bear fruit and they say the thing out loud to a group and get feedback about it, either as BS or as you know, very powerful or whatever, like you're gonna get that feedback. And you're if you're doing good group work, it's hey, what did you guys feel about that? You heard him just say that. What came up for you is they said and you don't always have to be the bad guy when somebody is spouting whatever. You can be like, How did you guys feel that? And they'd be like, I felt like that was really inauthentic and dumb. And you could just sit there and they have to reckon with all of that.

SPEAKER_01

That's it.

SPEAKER_00

They have to reckon with reality. And in one on one, they're just really trying hard to manipulate the reality of just this one other person, right? But in group, it is reality, so it has this different power. So when I say things, they have more meaning. When other people say things to me and it's more than one person, then it has an impact on my reality. I can write off a therapist. That's just your opinion. Yes. But if I have the whole group reflecting that back at me, then you know, that's a different thing. And what's happening in like from a social science and a neurobiology perspective is when I'm being vulnerable and getting that kind of feedback from other people, my brain is rewiring in real time. It's creating new connections as I'm building these vulnerable connections with others. Like I think crazy.

SPEAKER_03

That's stuff like that would be epigenetics, yes, I believe. Um, or quantum, there's qu it's quantum physics also at play um with all of that. Like, so even like right now, you and I sitting here, we're actually impacting each other's DNA because of relational proximity.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so, like when we do that, right? So if I'm rewriting neural pathways and you're part of that, then I'm rewriting things in you, you're rewriting things in me as we work together through these more tender spaces. You know, and we, as Kurt Thompson says, Yeah, we are all coming into this world looking for someone, looking for us. And when we're in a group of addicts or trauma survivors, well, addicts are trauma survivors for the most part, right? Like if we're in these spaces where there's this deep harm, it's happened at the hands of someone in relationship. You know, and oftentimes for the people that we work with, it's the people who should have cared for them, their parents, caregivers, people like that. And so they're like, is my life even worth anything? Like, you know, will you be with me in these places? And when they experience those touch points, it is profoundly healing to be like, oh my gosh, like A, I have words for the things that happened, B, I have a different experience with the things that happened.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And C, like nobody ran out of the room screaming. You know? Yeah, which is the same thing. Now granted you're sort of an inpatient facility, so it's a little harder for them to get out.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, yeah. We have their keys.

SPEAKER_03

But they still don't try to run out.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah. I I love how you mentioned Kurt Thompson because I in his book, The Soul of Shame, uh, he mentions this in that like the vulnerability and authenticity in like a group therapy situation is rewiring the your brain for connection. And um, I remember I was on the phone with a partner who was sending their their addict to treatment and just like, please tell me that like you can do something. And I said, you know what? I just put down this book, and you know what this book says, that we are rewiring our brains in real time and social relationships and renewal and healing. And and um the reality of that brought her so much hope that I mean there is a space, there's still like someplace for her husband to go and get better and uh that's deeper than just a new set of ideas or a new set of strategies or a new book that they've read or whatever. Like, no, if it's it's it has to be embodied and it's gonna be reflected right in our neurobiology, even though we can't, you know, see that with a microscope.

SPEAKER_03

And I would also say, like, you know, because I'm I'm a big fan of being mindful about hopium. And hopium is the stuff that a lot of our trade partners get into because they're like, we're gonna send them here. This is gonna fix it all. Yeah, they have to want it. Yeah, right. They have to lean into what I'm doing really isn't getting me what I need for real, right? Might be getting me what I want in some ways, but is it really what I want? Like, I have questions about that anyway.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But like they have to be willing to come to the party and they're they're gonna get data regardless. So whether it is a hey, they leaned in, they're starting to change, or they have absolutely run away from the process of change. Like that's data for a betrayed partner. Exactly. Right? Like that's data to say, hey, you know, good luck and Godspeed, man. Sometimes he needs to go do what he needs to do. It might not be with you, right? You might need to get yourself out of this situation because it's it's not gonna be safe. He's not willing to come to the table and feel.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, thank goodness, like those kind of conversations have been really rare, you know, for me in my professional career, but I'm not gonna say that that's never happened because when you go to those places with a group and somebody just says, Nope, not gonna do that, you know. Um I remember I had this guy in group that was um he had this embodied kind of anger and power to him, where he would sit really high in this chair and he would get like this big, you know, and he felt enormous. Like that his emotional kind of presence felt daunting. It felt huge. And when he would stand up to go to the bathroom, I'd be reminded that he was he was like five five or something. He was just he was a small man. He was I guess he was wide, like he had wide shoulders, but he was a small guy, and it was just blew my mind every time because the way in which he projected power into the space was so so embodied, so big. And and he was the emotional center of that group. And if he didn't participate, then other people wouldn't participate. You know, he was kind of granting permission, he had that kind of sway, right? And so he basically said, you know, we're not gonna go there. And that had a huge impact on other people's healing. You you know, we talk about agreements in therapy a lot, you know, like we're making an agreement that we're not gonna go super vulnerable here. And so we had to go after that. We had to go after because, you know, hey man, I'm gonna do the very best I can for you and your family and what we do here, and I'm not gonna settle, you know, and just let you sit there and and not get anything out of this. But you're right, people against their own good will sit in their stuff and and and fight for their version of reality, for their understanding of themselves. Yes. However diluted it might might be.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, like some of the groups that we run, so we run men of peace groups, which are for destructive men, you know, who are not relationing well at all with their spouses. And I think

When One Person Blocks A Group

SPEAKER_03

about that dynamic where you have someone who will not come to the table well, you know, and it does impact the whole rest of the group. I'm thinking of one of the groups that we ran where there was one particul person in particular and he was esteemed because he had what we would consider worldly status in some ways.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And when he was present in the group, everybody sandbagged. When he wasn't present in the group, like the nights that he missed, totally different vibe. We could have vulnerability. And one guy in that group who was definitely moving toward change actually took a chance on real vulnerability. It made this guy really uncomfortable. Like I was watching and I was like, oh, this is amazing. As a therapist, I was like, this is great. Yeah, you know, but this one guy like was so vulnerable about the destruction that he had caused his family and everything. And all the other guys were like, we don't know what to do because dude A over here is clearly uncomfortable. And dude B is like, I am in the weeds. Here we go. And I was like, I want to see how this plays out in the group and see how everyone interacts. And it ended up being very tense and uncomfortable, but really good, you know, because it kind of pushed everybody to look at what was happening for them. And as the facilitators, we were like pulling all the threads, right, you know, and seeing where it would go because like it was like, yeah, somebody dared to stand up to the person exuding the unspoken rules of groups, yeah, you know, by being genuinely vulnerable. And that person didn't know what to do, which I think was ultimately really good for them as well. Even though they felt standoffish, even though they didn't participate, there was that experience of like something is uncomfortable here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that. Because whenever you can create a dynamic like that in a group, you're really you're you're getting into the process of how they're feeling and how they're encountering the world, not the content of what they say or do. You know, I can see that you're uncomfortable with this person's vulnerability. What where do you think that's coming from inside of you? Oh no, I'm not uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not uncomfortable. Everything about you looks uncomfortable. It's really interesting. What does comfortable look like?

SPEAKER_00

They're all like this, you know, and like hold like I remember one guy was talking to me about that. He was literally holding himself kind of like a like a like a little child. I that's why I hate zoom therapy, is because you can't see that it's harder, it's harder. Because you're only getting this, right? But yeah, hey guys, like let's call him John or whatever. Hey John, um, I don't want don't move a muscle. Just stay exactly how you're sitting right there. And then, guys, what are you seeing in this posture, this body language, right? And if it's closed or if it's a little like this or judging or whatever it may be, there's so much information there that sometimes we don't even have access to as a therapist. Right. Because I don't have another voice that will agree.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Be like, hey, you look really closed off in your body language, they'd be like, No.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, totally fine.

SPEAKER_00

Right. But if you like leverage the group and you say, What do you guys see? And this guy and this guy and this guy is like, yeah, you seem really closed off, you seem really uncomfortable, and then it's like they well argue with reality. I mean, right. I'm just the therapist here, but you know, there's so much leverage in that. And man, in terms of psychodrama, there's so many different ways to use that too. Like if somebody doesn't want to participate, then they're a great person to play someone's you know, disconnected dad.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, right. So we'd like you to be the dismissive person. You're already there.

SPEAKER_00

You're you're typecast here, but you know what I mean. So this happened like just like literally like a week ago. We're doing this deep emotional work with this guy, and he's just bawling his eyes out. And one of the group members who had initially come over to like put a supportive hand on him had gotten bored and was just kind of sitting, zoning out and just kind of furrowing his brow, and who knows what he was thinking about, but he tended to do that a lot. And he was because he was having trouble engaging with vulnerability for any length of time, right? So he would pull out, yeah. And I was looking at his face and man, he seems disinterested, slightly irritated, perfect. Can you come in and play dad? And I want you to sit perpendicular, where you're only like looking at him halfway. And that is where he was at. So he wasn't really, you know, he didn't, you know, he earned his Oscar or whatever, but he didn't really have to play anything up. He would, that's just how he was. And his um irritation with being voluntold only added to it. Right. Perfect, right? And so this guy is like interacting with his apathetic, disinterested, bored, you know, dad that he grew up with who had his attention everywhere else.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And here's a perfect encapsulation of that. But the side effect of that too is now this person who is half in, half out is fully in, whether he likes it or not. Right. And he's gonna start to feel things.

SPEAKER_03

So and then he has to reckon with those things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and two days later he's the guy saying, you know, I want to find myself. I've I've I've never really known myself. I've always just been living in reaction to the events around me. And and in two days ago, he was well, he wanted to be anywhere else. Right.

SPEAKER_01

He was trying to check out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's the power of you know, back to psychodrama. Here we are, right? But um, that's the power of that kind of stuff. Everything is raw material.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, for if you're creative, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, which I think then again, it's such a great modality for groups, you know, because you can get to those deeper places in a way that is not manufactured. It's set up, yeah, right. You set the stage for it, quite literally, but you know, you don't have to manufacture circumstance, right? We're really bringing in the experiences of life and the experiences of each other to have this moment of like, oh, yeah, this is so much deeper than I ever could have thought.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, because well, I get a little nervous talking about this part because I know there are folks that like the phrase retraumatization is like big for them, and I'm really wary of that. When we train our staff and when we practice these things and develop skill with these things in our in our team, where we want to um evoke emotion. We're gonna do our best to not provoke this person, but we may. Um, but as long as we stay with it, and as long as we stay with them and support them, and the event um has a resolution to it. It's not perfect, it's not totally like 100% cathartic, you know, gone, you know. But as long as it has a different ending and a more supportive ending, like there's no way to re-traumatize them. Then we would have to have that circumstance and then just leave them there.

SPEAKER_03

Right, which is exactly what you're not doing. Exactly. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. We're gonna respond to it this time, we're gonna be present to it this time, we're gonna do what needs to be done this time.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And in and I I have very few like qualities that I have to have in my clinicians when I'm interviewing folks. Um, because I want them to be teachable, I want them to be, you know, uh flexible and smart, those are all really good qualities. But the one that I don't um I I won't hire folks that I don't think are creative. Because if I can't see my way to another outcome here, or if I can't see my way to uh what was the unmet need, what's the unresolved thing, then then yeah, there is a risk that we could leave them in that place. But but I mean it's a small one. Re-traumatization is also a risk when you are in like a timed therapy session. If I've got 50 minutes or an hour and a half, and I've got to get this thing going and then wrap it all up and close it up nice and neat, and you know, put it away, and we should be doing that with our clients, especially in week-to-week therapy. And if I don't do that process of putting it away and making sure that we can leave it and come back and get it if we need it. If we don't do that process, then we can create these raw nerves that then and go and are gonna relapse because we haven't we've left that wound open. Right.

SPEAKER_03

You know, so um I think that is the value of intensive work. I know we do intensives at our practice, not 14 days because we're not an inpatient facility, but we do like three to five days sometimes. But like, you know, of the like having that longer. So A, you can engage with it more deeply. Yes, you can go more into it and have a completely different experience. Yes. Right. I think is it Gabor Mate that says something along the lines of um trauma isn't what happened to you, it's what happened in you because of the absence of an empathic witness. Yeah, right. So we're definitely not gonna re traumatize people. I think this is especially for younger therapists or for people who've had crappy therapy and which

Trauma, Safety, And Intensive Work

SPEAKER_03

is so frustrating. I I I wish there were not crappy therapists in the world for them. They really do. But like where it's like, hey, I'm not gonna leave you in this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like we're I'm I'm with you. I'm gonna build the, you know, attunement and relationship with you. And we're gonna go out the other side. I always tell my clients, we may walk through the valley of the shadow of death, but we are not making camp. You know, we are going out the other side of it, you know, and but I'm gonna walk with you in it. Like we're not gonna engage the darkness without remembering there's light. We're gonna keep one foot in the light all the time. We're gonna have these new experiences together. And in an intensive format, like you have the time so that you can help people feel all the way through something and have that new experience and do some things that maybe they wouldn't do. I know in our office, one of the favorite things that we have are these little um chicken slingshots. Okay. They're like shaped like little rubber chickens. You stick your finger and you pull their feet back and you fling them. And we had chicken Olympics in the common area of our office to see how far you can fling a chicken because it's playful, it's reparative to not being able to have delight or whimsy. There's bilateral movement involves, like it's a very intentional type of intervention that you can only do when you have enough time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

In a 15-minute session, it's a lot harder to do chicken Olympics, truly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you're trying to open something and close it within these little 15-minute sections because if I'm looking at the clock and I've got 10 minutes left, then I can't do the thing that I think needs to happen because there's no way I can close it back up in time. Like a lot of guys that are coming into treatment, they have a pretty high ACE score, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03

And that's adverse childhood experiences.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Um a lot of trauma. And so one of the ways they've protected themselves from that trauma is by not engaging with any of those emotions or sensations or relationships that have to do with it. So they haven't, like I said earlier, like this locked front door. So even if we get into the psychodrama, they're um uh they're they're like they're only half in at first. Right. Like, hey mom, uh, okay, what do I need to say to mom? Um uh mom, you were not there for me. And then they kind of look at you like, am I doing this right? But let's say mom, you know, I've heard this one too many times, like she would would break or break spoons, right? Over the kids and some tough stories, right? Well, if sh if he's talking to mom and he's only half in, and I have one of the other group members stand behind him and hold a wooden spoon.

SPEAKER_03

Oh gosh, I found that in my body as you were saying it. Oh my goodness. We also know what kind of evangelical upbringing I was brought up in now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man, right? And then all of this, you see their whole body change. Yeah, right. And I was working with this guy a couple weeks ago, and he was like, I'm like, ooh, I'm feeling that like ring in my head. And now this dynamic with mom, who was the violent one, uh, is now meaningful. And it has the emotions that were unresolved anger, resentment, right, you know, um, grief that you were not the mother that I needed. You were not story time and chicken soup. You hurt us.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And man, I think the what is that re-traumatization? No, we're actually engaging the pain.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that we can feel through it. And what they were about to do was half-ass a really deep experience that needed to be built through. And they're like, I wish you would stop doing that. And in my head, I'm saying, brother, because I love you, I won't. Right. Because what you're doing here is you're gonna finish. Right. Right. And you know, it's there's all sorts of things. That's why I keep all these props around.

SPEAKER_02

Like if it's belts, you know, you got that oh god, I'm over here having all these like feelings now because I'm like, dang, that sounds like my childhood.

SPEAKER_00

Well, something you know, the snapping noises they make, or or the the even the jingling of the buckle. Yeah, right. And people are right there.

SPEAKER_03

Right there, because the body remembers, right? Like I think those are the things that get written into the narrative of the traumatic experiences that when we finally can engage with them and in a safe place, which really a group setting when it's done well is a safe place.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That you can let your body feel like, oh, I remember the snapping of the belt, I remember the tapping of the wingspoon, remember being told to go outside and get a switch or whatever it was, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Or being put in the corner or whatever it was for the person that they can go, yeah. And that younger part of them is like, oh, we're fully here now. Like, we're in. And you get to walk all the way through it instead of having to compartmentalize it. And I think that's part of what happens and why we end up with addictions, right? Take these horrible things, we compartmentalize them, we try to shove them in what I refer to as the Ghostbusters containment unit. You shove it down, shove it down, shove it down, right? And then you anestheti it with sex addiction, alcohol, substance use, whatever it is. And every now and again that containment unit breaks, everybody gets slimed, you know, or like the substances are weighing you down, the process is weighing you down. It's not letting you be fully present and there, and you've learned to anestheti everything, including good things. Yeah. And so being able to go back to those places and go, I'm gonna feel all the way through this this time, and I'm gonna do it with when witnesses who are with me in it, who aren't just gonna leave me alone in it. I think that's also the fear is I'm gonna be left alone, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I I don't have to do this alone anymore. And then that, especially for men, like, and I don't know, I'm clearly I'm not a man, so I will lean to you for this. But like for men in particular, what I observe is they don't know how to really engage emotionally with other men in healthy ways. You know, there's a lot of like coarse talk and things like that that I see.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But when you can get in a room full of other guys and have that vulnerability and have it be done safely, like that's bonding.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And we've like we forget that our culture has been formed by crisis, disease, and war. I mean, there's no generation of Americans that have not known another generation that knew war.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, from the Civil War to World War One was a somebody could have been a touch both of those wars. We feel like they're a million miles apart. And then it's, you know, the Great Depression, and there's World War II, and then there's Korea, and then there's Vietnam, and then there's, you know, Afghanistan, the Gulf War. We have known nothing but wars. So all of these men who feel like they are masculine and normative because they watch beer commercials and Marlboro ads and all that, like we really don't know. We've been traumatized by survival uh settings, and so we don't know how to be vulnerable. Right. And uh no one taught us these tools. So when a guy gets there experientially, I'm so proud of them each time because they don't know whether or not the other men are gonna respond to them or make fun of them, or would they come, would they dare to comfort? And when a guy gets there experientially and they begin to cry in that sadness or or vibrate with that hurt and anger to have other men come and support them, just a hand on the shoulder. Yeah, it's so startling. They had no idea that that was a thing that could happen. And um that's the healing, right? And they're in it and they've made it through this moment with this person that hurt them or whatever, but they are being comforted and they're strengthened through that process. And then we say, What are you believing about yourself right now that is true? We're so used to believing the lies, right? But what's the true thing that I'm believing right now? Yes, and that's usually the that's that's the the way out, right? That's the uh the the end of the process when I can feel through it and then leave like like like you know, uh the the hero's journey, right? I have I'm returning home with a new belief or a new understanding of myself or something else in the world, and it their belief could like I am strong, right? Or I am lovable, or I am worthy of rescue. I should have been rescued, I deserved that, and I wasn't, you know. And that's the the good stuff, that's the juicy stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03

And that, you know, you know, I I do so much work in evangelical spaces, and you hear all of like the king's table and the foxholes and all this other stuff.

Masculinity, Feelings, And Courage

SPEAKER_03

I'm like, cool.

SPEAKER_00

Um It's a different episode.

SPEAKER_03

And I think about it, and I I had the occasion to speak at a church pretty recently, and one of the guys and I were chatting afterwards, and we were talking about the man card, right? And he's like, I don't want to be emotional and get my man card revoked. And I was like, actually, who's the manliest man you can think of? And he's like, Well, Jesus, because that's the right answer in Jesus. Right in church, yeah. And I was like, Well, Jesus wept and he had all these emotions, and you know, so what if what you're actually doing is enhancing your man card instead of having it revoked? What if we've had a lie about what the man card is altogether? And he was just like, you know, I love that. And I think like that's the beauty then of having that vulnerability is your man card isn't revoked. You are actually more fully who you are, more fully man when you have the entire range of yourself and you have the entire range of emotions, and that's gonna enhance your relationships, you're gonna have real intimacy because there's not gonna be this barrier of I can't let you close. Yeah. Because what if you knew? Right. Right. I mean, if they're going to begin again, there's some things that have come up, obviously, that are less than ideal for relationships.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you said it earlier. Like if I pick and choose what I will feel, then I'm acting I'm gonna lose more than what I bargained for. Right. I can't numb out this particular emotion without taking the rest of them.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And when I try to numb out sadness or hurt or uh whatever, well, all of the tender stuff and sadness, and yeah, I lose joy too. It all goes. And I'm left with usually just one, and that's usually anger. That's the only one men feel really safe accessing sometimes. Sometimes not even that. But yeah, you you lose all of that, and and you're less than human when we do that. God created us with emotions, he's not punishing us for feeling them. Like he wants all of us, he wants healing for all of us, and so right, yeah. I say that all the time, you know. Is it is it more manly to feel your feelings or run from them?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Which requires courage. Right, right, feel your way through it. Well, um, um, you know, uh, you know, right. I I can I can work that up, but you know, I just don't feel that courage within me. It's like, man, you feel fear, and so courage is a choice on top of fear. It's not when you don't feel fear, right? It's what you do when you are afraid. That's courage, you know. Like, am I if you're not afraid and you're courageous in battle, then you're just an idiot.

SPEAKER_03

You just don't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

Right, like there's gotta be a little wisdom there, right?

SPEAKER_00

That's not the ideal soldier, is to just be not afraid of anything, it's what I choose to do in my fear. And when I put it that way for guys, they it's just the G it's the Jesus thing. Like they never can disagree with that.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I've been spending my whole life running from my feelings and calling it strength.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Oh you know, yeah, wow, and what what what are you gonna do with that? You know, you can keep that up, or we can we can you know create some exceptions, you know, in your in your sphere of experience, you know.

SPEAKER_03

That's awesome. I could talk to you like all day about these things. Like we could just sit here and nerd out the whole time and be amazing, but then nobody would watch. Um But actually, maybe they would. Maybe they would just listen to us for six hours. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Who knows? We're pretty great.

SPEAKER_03

We are in fact, pretty great. Um I'm really grateful that you have been here with me, hanging out with me. I'm glad we got to do this in person. It would have been fun either way, but it's way funner this way. And you know, I have like so many more things I want to ask you, so we will just have to come back and we'll have to do it again.

SPEAKER_02

Anytime.

SPEAKER_03

I'm really grateful. And we will have all the contact info for begin again um in the show notes so people can access that, reach out to you guys. I definitely recommend your program for you know, men who are struggling with compulsive sexual behavior. I think it's a great program. It's worthy that you have a Christian men's intensive and a, you know, not necessarily religious um men's intensive as well, in addition to um the betrayed partner uh week that you guys do. So just good stuff, really good stuff. Y'all are good eggs. Good eggs over there at beginning in. Um, and I want to thank everybody for listening or watching this week's episode of Hey Tabby. Be sure to subscribe. Please go and like it and comment and like say all the good things on all the podcasts app and all of those good things. And we will see you here again next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-C-A-C-I, and you can grab it there. Look forward to seeing you next time.

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Tabitha Westbrook, LMFT-S, LCMCH-QS, LPC-S, CSAT, CCTP, CCTCP

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