You Can Question God and Still Be Faithful with Elizabeth Woodson

What happens when grief, church hurt, disappointment, and cultural pressures begin shaping our faith more than the Gospel?

In this episode of Hey Tabi, Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Bible teacher, author, speaker, and podcaster Elizabeth Woodson for a rich conversation about spiritual formation, healing, discipleship, singleness, biblical literacy, and learning to trust God again after painful experiences.

Elizabeth shares insights from her book Habits of Resistance: Seven Ways You're Being Formed by Culture and Gospel Practices to Help You Push Back, exploring how social media, hustle culture, comparison, and cultural pressures subtly shape believers. Together, Tabitha and Elizabeth discuss why busyness often becomes a distraction from healing, how Jesus reveals the heart of God to those struggling with church hurt, and why discipleship must move beyond information into transformation.

They also dive into practical encouragement for single women, the importance of friendship and community, contentment in every season of life, accountability within church leadership, and the need for a healthier vision of discipleship in the modern church.

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 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

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Transcript

The Big Question About God

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Can you be angry at God, question God, wrestle with God, and still be faithful? I'm Tabitha Westbrook, a licensed trauma therapist. Today on Hey Tabby, my guest and I are going to talk about that and so much more. Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. I am really excited to be here. I'm really excited for the person that I'm going to be chatting with. And I have to admit, I'm a little bit of a fangirl, but I'm super, super stoked to have Elizabeth Woodson here with us. Elizabeth is an author, she's a podcaster, she's a speaker, she is one of the best Bible teachers I've ever heard in my entire life, quite frankly. And I am delighted to invite her here and hang out with her and chat today. Thank you for joining me, Elizabeth. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation. Me too. And one of the things I often say about you that you're about to hear now that you've never heard before, because this is our first conversation, is that I could listen to you read the phone book and somehow I'd find Jesus Christ in it. And I think that is the hallmark of a good teacher.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I love that. You know, I would I would try. I would try to make that connection for y'all that he's in the phone book. He's here waiting for us. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

He's everywhere waiting for us. It's awesome. So your latest book was Habits of Resistance, which I loved. I listened to it via audiobook, which honestly, again, one of the best ways is when the author reads it and you do. And I really found a lot of value in just wrestling with the different spaces that we can get drawn away from God and how to resist that. So tell me a little bit about the book, about what made you write it and just your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah, habits of resistance, seven ways you're being formed by culture and gospel practices to help you push back, really is an invitation for believers to pause and take inventory of have I maybe drifted from the way of Jesus in ways that were not necessarily intentional, but just kind of this subconscious, we're going with the current of the culture simply because it's where we hang out. And the space that I identify in the book is just social media, right? The place that we all uh spend our time on. And so the book arose out of really two things. One was just difficulty in my own life. And so I had uh lost a loved one several years ago to cancer

Habits That Resist Cultural Drift

SPEAKER_00 3:03

and Tabitha just it really just kind of wrecked, wrecked me. And grief is is difficult and it's hard and it's messy. And sometimes busyness and achievement seem like a more uh viable path to deal with the pain instead of sitting in it. And I found myself in a really honest conversation with the Lord after trying to fill my plate and calendar with a lot of things. He's like, man, the solution you're looking for isn't in all those things, Elizabeth. It's in me and it's in what I will provide for you, and it's in staying in the place maybe that you don't want to be in right now. And so I had to ask myself, well, where did I pick up all this stuff? All these projects and what I call hustle culture. And again, this belief that, oh, if I just do all this whole list of things, then life will be better for me. I'm not gonna say those things to myself legitimately, but you kind of pick it up. This, the way you live your life tells a story about what you believe. And the story was telling me something that I need to pay attention to. And so when I think about the Christians around me and think about how we're showing up online and the things I see when I scroll, uh, I also think that's telling a story. And so the polarizing division, the way we talk to each other in 140 characters and are so quick to dishonor those made in the image of God and feel justified in doing that because they disagree with us on a particular topic. It is overconsumption, it is identity issues. And so I think specifically for women, you see a lot pushed at us and how we're supposed to look and how we're supposed to show up. And frankly, that just kind of gets overwhelming. And so I was like, there's more that the Lord has for us. And maybe it's an invitation for us to be more intentional about how we're ordering our lives, because we will be formed. And I think we're being formed in a way that doesn't make us look like Jesus. And it's time to be honest, I think, about that.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Absolutely. I think about that busyness is anesthetic when we're hurting, you know, and a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast have been through some pretty severe trauma, particularly abusive structures, behaviors, you know, abusive relationships. And, you know, it can be so tempting when you haven't had autonomy, when you finally get autonomy, to go and do all the things and to be in all the places and in your desperation to heal, to start pulling in, well, this therapy or this therapy or this thing or this busyness or this job or this, this. And pretty soon you're crushed under the weight of actually trying to heal. And it doesn't heal you at all.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, I think we just it's a distraction of sorts. And like you said, now your plate becomes so full with other things that kind of get in the way of the hard work of healing, which I wish it was a quicker path. I wish it wasn't as messy and with the U-turns that it has, but it is a place that requires us to be present. I think that's what I've learned over the years. And all this stuff makes the stuff we will add on our plate makes being present difficult.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah. One of the things I talk to so many advocates about that I train is the ministry of presence. So we're learning to lean in and be present with people. But one of the people we're we struggle to be present with the most is ourselves. And that's a whole thing, right? I can sit with somebody else, but can I sit with me when I am struggling? And ultimately then can I sit with God? Do I even believe He wants to sit with me? And do I believe He'll even talk to me?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah. And I think sometimes we can have really hard feelings towards God. And so, man, if I show up the Lord, Lord, I'm I'm not have sugary sweet words for you. Like I have hard questions for why did this happen? Where were you? What are you gonna do about it? Um, but it's the Holy Spirit just does something, I believe, in that space when we're courageous enough to show up. But sometimes it's being courageous enough to kind of make that first step that can be really hard.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

It's it can be really tough, especially when the harm that you've experienced in your life came at

Grief, Hustle, And Avoiding Pain]

SPEAKER_01 7:05

the hands of people who said that they spoke for Jesus. So pastors, spouses, you know, places in where a lot of people are like, ooh, especially as women, can be a real rough landscape on occasion in the big sea church.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, like you, it will rattle your faith. And what I love about the Lord is he's big enough for that. He's big enough again for one of the words I think I hate to use, but f feels so appropriate is the tension. He just he's he's he is big enough for all of that and big enough again for the journey. I think in in my, I think of the house of I I talk about Christianity as a house. That's the metaphor I use. And there are all these rooms that relate to theological traditions. So you have people who consider themselves evangelical and people who would not, Methodist, Presbyterian, charismatic, all that kind of stuff. And so that he's big enough that even if in the theological room you've grown up in, like this is what you've known Jesus to be, that if you have questions, you don't have to leave the house. Like you can learn from people who maybe you weren't hanging out with, but they sell something to teach you about who God is, uh still in Orthodox Christianity, but there's space for the wrestle. And I think that we don't always teach people that. We just make it like you have to come to the answer really quickly, or there is a lot of surety in the specific answer. And it's like a lot of times the journey in the wrestle is the point, um, and shows us so much about who God is, helps us adjust our expectations and take him at his own word um for how he reveals himself through scripture. But again, that doesn't always fit nice, neat, and packaged. And I think that's something that we try to present Christianity as. And anyone who's been a Christian for a long period of time, gone through something that requires you to have a significant adjustment in your faith, realizes, oh, that maybe there's some other things attached to this again within orthodoxy that that I wasn't originally exposed to. Um, and the Lord's inviting me to discover.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah. It's it's such it's disorienting to disentangle, but it's beautiful because there is so much beauty just in God's word and who he is. And it's not very comfortable to start exploring and to ask those questions, especially when you've been raised in a tradition that that is calcified, where it's this way or no way. These are the things that we believe. You're not allowed to believe anything else. Um, some people might call that a high control space, but when you start going, but is it really what does the word of God actually say? And on this podcast, we are big fans of biblical literacy. Go read it for yourself and study it and get on your face with the Lord and really look because I think the older I've gotten, and I'm in my 50s now, that the more that I just realize I'm not as sure of some things as I used to be. The one thing I'm sure of is Jesus and salvation. And I think that Paul says that best, right? Like if I don't know anything else but Jesus and him crucified and resurrected, I'm golden, right? And I think that's really the underpinning of it. Like some of these things that are constructs of man that are labeled with God are good questions to ask and good questions to ask God about things that have happened in our lives. And we can, like you said, have that tension and wrestle and not lose our salvation and not be pushed out of the family of God. Sometimes we get pushed out of the family room that we're standing in because the tradition doesn't love it, but God's never gonna reject us.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

So what would you say just in this loud world? It's it's such a loud world. What would you say to the sufferer who is like, I don't know how to like move toward God? He seems super scary to me right now. I've seen some things. How do I learn to trust him again?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

I would say one, that that's not an abnormal response, right? So that you're not alone in that and thinking that that other Christians throughout history have struggled with that kind of same place of God, you seem who you are doesn't seem as someone I'd want to draw near to you. Uh, what I love to point people to

Church Hurt And Honest Prayer

SPEAKER_00 11:27

is just who Jesus, how Jesus shows up in the Gospels. And I like the Gospel of Luke, uh, because Jesus particularly shows up with people. Uh, Luke is is very intentional about describing how Jesus shows up with people that society may not have valued, specifically women. Like he shows a lot up a lot talking to, having conversation with, honoring. I think about the woman uh with the issue of blood. And Jesus is he his his interactions to me sometimes can be humorous uh because he asks who touched him, and it's like, we know you now. Like, why are you asking this question? Uh but he stops, like he's on his way to heal somebody else. And he stops and he makes time for her. And so I would invite them to just read, like, take him for how the gospel writers have have have painted a picture of how he showed up with people. And what you will find is he's compassionate, that he makes time for people and people that society said you shouldn't make time for. And Jesus gives us an idea of who God is. And so sometimes we can read passages, and man, it's you're you're big, you're scary, very seems to be very angry. Um, I don't understand things you're doing. But Jesus shows us that he shows us the fullness of what that looks like. Sometimes we can have one part of the picture, and Jesus shows us a bigger picture. And so hang out with Jesus for a little bit and see if he changes your opinion of what it means to draw near to God.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

And I would say for a lot of folks, like I've had clients tell me, I love Jesus, like of the New Testament, but the God of the Old Testament is scary and he's so mean. And I'm like, I don't know if you've actually read some of those scriptures. And I think about Back to the Garden, where you know, we get everything is great for the first two chapters, and then chapter three, it all just falls apart on us because if it hadn't been them, look, it would have been me. Like I I'm aware of this, you know. And I look at how compassionate God was. And I think that depending on how you grew up, you can read the where are you in a few different tones. And I don't think it was the angry dad, you're about to get grounded tone. I think it was one of like longing and tenderness and you know, an invitation to like, yes, this is about to be a bad thing. You did do something that caused a problem here, but I'm gonna make clothes for you. Like, I'm going to care for you. And there's a provision for this to not be the end of the story. It was really just the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, like even in chapter four, uh they have been evicted from the garden. That's my translation. Uh, and I get this visual picture of them just kind of going off in the darkness by themselves. You know, that's that's what you can imagine that experience was like. But then you read in chapter four that God is talking to uh Cain. And you're just like, wait, wait a second. This whole situation you all have constructed in your disobedience, but yet and still he is not just talking to Cain. He is wants to guide him in the way that is best for him. Uh, and so again, that just compassion, that continual care and provision, the scriptures point to at the end of Genesis chapter two, that they there was no shame. And then you come to these immediate consequences of Adam and Eve's actions. And one of them is an awareness of their nakedness, an awareness of what they don't have, and how, like you said, the Lord steps in. Like whatever they tried on their own, the fig leaves were not sufficient. And he doesn't let them just walk around with fig leaves. He could have, uh, but he makes some clothing. It just is, yeah, to see the details of how the Lord remains present. That to me is what's beautiful about the Old Testament, how God shows up is he just keeps showing up for people who are consistent in not uh being faithful to him, that he's always faithful, and that speaks loudly of how he's going to show up in our lives too.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Absolutely. I think a pastor I heard once said, you know, God holds us in his righteous right hand, and like even when we try to jump out, like we kind of can't. Like he's just not gonna let us go. Yeah. And that's a beautiful picture. You know, I think it can be really hard for people in this world, especially when they've been really deeply hurt by the church, to separate the pain of what what people have done in the name of God from God Himself. And knowing too that God's not okay with it. Like God's not looking down on wickedness and destruction and abuse and oppression and like just being like, well, but that really stinks. Like he actually is doing something about it actively, not usually in our timeline, frankly. Let's just be honest. But he is actively doing something about it. And he says that he's you know, when he comes back, he's going to wipe away every tear. He is going to take care of business and all of the badness is going to be cared for and and done undone, essentially. And that's a really hopeful picture, even though in our momentary suffering, though it doesn't feel light or momentary, it can be really easy to lose sight of that goodness. Where would you say, especially when my heart in a lot of ways is for the church as a whole, women in the church, and I love men in the church. I mean, I just love the church and people, but I have a real heart for single women because I think the church has missed us, um like in in a lot of ways. And what would you say to our single sisters out there who are trying to resist things, trying to even know what noise is getting in the way of their relationship with God? What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, I would say take account of the people, and sometimes it's not people online, it is the people in your

Relearning Trust Through Scripture

SPEAKER_00 17:16

in-life real community that are giving you the loudest messages about what your seasons should be about. Um, and so singleness in the church is hard for lots of reasons. I'm sure you have talked about on your podcast. But what I do love about this season is the opportunity for vibrancy. And that can be a challenge, right? It can be a challenge to because you don't have a picture of that representation for what does this look like in a way that feels fun and exciting and not you kind of gotta like code it with stuff to say, this looks cute when it really isn't cute. Like how is it really beautiful? And so who are you listening to? What books are you reading? Uh, what conversations are you having? And are you in taking things that are helping to stir your imagination for what could be? Or are you stirring your imagination for what you don't have, uh, or your lack of value, or things that are just going to put you in a place of just focusing on what's on the other side of the other grass patch. Um, I'm messing up that that whatever we say. But uh to me, it's just we take our mind away from it and we really just think it's not valuable. That's the messages we're gonna receive. So I would challenge to take an inventory and then to step out and be courageous enough with the Lord to say, Lord, if this is where you have me, then this is where beauty and goodness reside. And so show me how to make this beautiful and good. That's not always easy, but to me, I have found it to be a worthwhile task that has produced something that's really, really just great. But you gotta figure out where is the weight of who I'm listening to. And maybe I need to increase the influences that tell me that what I have is actually beautiful in one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah. I think that is such an important thing. Is what voices do we give weight to? And, you know, there's nothing wrong with desire for relationship. I think that is a beautiful thing. It can be a God-given thing. But when desire becomes ultimate, like I have to have this fulfilled because I'm not complete. I call that the Jerry McGuire fallacy, like the you complete me. It's like, dude, I'm a whole person already. You're just icing on the cake if there is a person, right? Like I'm already complete because God says I am. I'm made in the image and likeness of my father. And I don't need someone else to be okay. I don't need someone else to serve the Lord. I don't need any of those things. Now, would I desire that at times? Yeah, I desire a partner. But also, that's not gonna stop me from living a very full life. And I think that can be really hard for abuse survivors in particular who have been married a long time already, and then their marriage dissolves and they're like, man, for the last 40 years, this is all I've known. What do I do now? Who am I now? And it can feel almost like standing on a hilltop naked, which is real uncomfortable, and going, I don't even know what I like or dislike or what I need or don't need, or even where I want to put my feet. And you'd already talked about that slow process of healing and to enter into that. But who are we listening to? And what voices have we given power over us? And are they the voice of the Lord? Which is it can be tricky because sometimes they say they're the voice of the Lord and they're not Him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah, it just uh because I think at the the bottom of it is a skill that you do need for marriage too, and that's contentment because singles will go into marriage believing it's gonna be happily ever after, and this fantasy, and you realize, oh, this is actually one really normal, really ordinary, uh, but also it's hard and it's not glamorous. It's I gotta figure out how to live here and make the most of being here. And so, you know, I do look a lot to Paul in all the places that he was. He's like, I've learned to, you can I think this is a KJB. It's like I've learned how to be a base and be a bound. Uh, I've heard how to have a lot and have a little. Because I know that all I need comes from the Lord. And so there are these grounding beliefs about God that if God is sovereign, if he's in control, if he's good and he is going to give good gifts and blessing, then if I believe all of that to be true, then here in this pot of life that I've been given is all I need to create vibrancy and beauty and goodness. It's not going to be perfect, neither is marriage. Um, and like you said, it's a slow discovery. And so to the person who finds himself in singleness after a long marriage, it's like, man, you get to discover. And you get to try in the same way that uh in aspects of their marriage they did too. And so it's a same skill used in a different context. Uh, but to me, the discovery process, while slow and sometimes challenging, is also really fun. There's a freshness to it. Uh, because you get to you get some autonomy in that space to to put together whatever you want it to be uh for the glory of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Absolutely. And there's so many things that are just delightful out there. There are. They're so good. And I was talking about this with a friend this morning that, like, when we look out there, do we look for delight or do we look for harm? And when you're habituated to harm because you've experienced some things, you know, you're gonna rightly be hyper-vigilant. And as a woman, I think that we are just a little hyper-vigilant anyway. I mean, like, I don't know a woman who doesn't like sticker keys between her knuckles in case she's got to throw some hands, you know? Like, that's just the world we live in and we have to be smart. But there is so much to delight in. A few years ago, um, now it's about two and a half, I got a camper van. Her name is Van Quility. My listeners know this. She is my emotional support vehicle. And what I love most about her is all of the ways I get to learn delight and goodness in something totally new. And I was telling my friend, like, I have this deep and abiding love for truck stop showers just because I find them fascinating and I'm like, they're everywhere, and you can go, some are good, and some I'd rather not step in again. And like, it's just so fascinating to me that you can like take a shower in a truck stop. And I don't know why I'm fascinated, but I am. But it's a place that I find delight equally when as to when I'm parked next to a really amazing river on the side of a mountain or whatever. There's so much that we can find even in the mundane places. And all the van lifers that you see out there, and they're like opening their back doors to the beach and whatever. Dude, that is not their 99% of the time. They're opening their back doors to the love's truck stop just like I am. And so are they finding delight?

Singleness As Beauty And Adventure

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Are we finding delight in the everyday? Because I think that builds that muscle of being able to see the Lord when his delight shows up.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, the everyday is the point. Um, because that's the most of the time we will spend. And so I love kind of this camper van that you've got. Because to me, it's just a beautiful picture of we're just gonna get in this thing and we're just gonna discover. Like it's an adventure. And when people are able to see their singleness like that, it's an adventure that's full of fun and delight. Like you said, to me, then there's you're on a pathway to health. You could still want to find someone and you will find prayerfully, you will find them on the way if that's what you desire. But it's an adventure and lean into the fun of that instead of constantly focusing on where you are now.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Absolutely. And I think in these places, we also find more of our tribe, if you will, like are people that are gonna come alongside us. Like I call it chosen family. Um, you know, and I I'm a firm believer, this is an old adage, and I've been a Christian a real long time. So I've been in the church forever, but it's an old adage I've heard families are formed at the cross. And for those hurt by the church, I can, you're like, yes, dysfunctional families. And I hear you, but there is really good family that can also come in these places. And like I think about like, so I hit my head in my van and gave myself a concussion, as I sometimes do. And I don't even give myself a concussion that often, but I sometimes get myself into trouble. But it was beautiful because a friend of mine who was talking to me and I was like, man, I don't feel good. She's like, uh, thank you. Might have a concussion and looked up the symptoms for me. And then some other friends helped me find an ER because I was not near home to get checked out. And I had people, I had people who deeply care for me and who were ready to come alongside me and walk with me. And I think we underestimate that kind of intimacy in in this day and age. Like it's like a lot of partnered intimacy talk, like, you know, in those romantic relationships, but we don't talk about intimacy and friendships and cultivating that at all. Like, what would you recommend to the singles out there who are like, this is a new concept. What do I do with this?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, just lean in to, and I and maybe even lean in is not the best phrase, but to be intentional about being a good friend. Uh, and I think so. Sometimes I have found there to be a little bit of not strategy, but organization to it, right? I'm gonna choose these people. I see them regularly. And so maybe it's the

Building Chosen Family Friendships

SPEAKER_00 26:46

three people that are in my small group if you're at a church. If it's not at a church, it's some other exercise group. It is uh some other regular gathering. So that might be the first step. Where do I regularly see people? Uh, proximity for friendship is actually really powerful in regular, like every week. And so there was a season in my life where I was like, man, I just need to sign up for this activity so that I am seen by a group of people every week. That I'm not just in my apartment hanging out by myself. Uh, and so there's that regularity. What are one or two people that you can just be intentional about? Send in a text message. They gave you a prayer request, follow up on the prayer request. It is the as shared memories compound, positive shared memories, the friendship deepens. Um, and so investing in these group of people and then inviting them into your space. So that's like, well, let's hang out, let's grab dinner, come over to my house, let's watch a movie, let's do a gang night. And as you invest in these, uh, the prayer and the hope is that you will see the intimacy and fruit. Um, it does take time and intentionality and proximity. But to me, when all those things come together, that is actually one of the benefits of singleness that I have found is the ability to have deep and abiding friendships that sometimes I see my married folks uh don't have as much capacity for. And so again, as women, I think we love community. That's something really beautiful about women and to be courageous enough to take some of those first awkward steps, if that's not something that you have in your life, uh good friendship, and trust that as you continue to show up, the Lord will do something in those relationships for your good.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Absolutely. And yeah, I like to tell my millennial friends, you you gotta put on pants, right? Like you gotta put on pants and leave your house. Like, you know, and I I was asking one of my millennial clinicians, I was like, how do we help people put on pants and leave the house? Like, because I'm Gen X, I'm like, I will put on pants and leave the house. But, you know, she said, bring them to coffee, like and have good coffee. And I was like, okay, like so. If you need to meet friends at a coffee shop or if you just need to go hang out at a coffee shop and see who else might be hanging out there as well, then that's a way in. And I know for single parents it can be tough. You know, in some ways, there's a structure of like play dates and things that can help, but also being intentional about caring well for you. You know, we tell all the moms that come to our practice, you got to put your oxygen mask on first. We might see your kid one hour a week, but you get them the other 23 hours of, you know, the day and all the other hours of the week. So if you're not good and you're not caring for yourself, then it's gonna be really hard for you to take care of somebody else. So we invite them into that place. And for a lot of women, self-care can feel almost sacrilegious. Like, you know, I'm not, what do you mean I'm allowed to like go do something for myself and not just throw myself upon the altar of someone else? And it's it can be a real shift in how we think about things at times.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, very much so. That you again, that you your ability to care for yourself helps you care for others, helps you show up to the things that the seasons where you do have to have that little, that bit of grit and push to get through that thing is easier when you have spent time, even if it's just a little bit, uh, loving on yourself in the same way that you would love on the

Self Care Without Shame

SPEAKER_00 30:09

people in your life.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah. One of the most profound things that I was ever told by my own therapist years ago was, you know, how would you treat you if you were married to you? And I went, oh snap. Oh my goodness. Because that was profound, because I would never treat another living human being with the ugliness I have treated myself. That's right. And that's like a, you know, when we look at that, we ought then we put that on God. How would God treat us? Right? Because ultimately how I treat myself is kind of in some ways how I see God.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, very much so. And if we love God's creation, then we ought to love the way he loves, and that includes within ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Absolutely. Think about the passage, love your neighbor as yourself. Like there's an understanding there that you will actually care for yourself in that because you truly can't care well for others if you are not caring well for you. So, what is your very favorite thing to talk about these days when you're just like, there's a burning passion within me for this? What is that?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, I mean, my very favorite thing to talk about is discipleship. Uh, it's how we help people live out the things that they are learning to believe from scripture in ways that uh to me just help turn the world upside down for the Lord. And so, how do we, especially I'm in the South, and so we're it's a mega church country, and the problem of the South is how do we get to the consumers to be able to be, I don't want to say producers in the way that we're just looking for you to output things for the Lord, but that you are taking what you are hearing and living it out Monday through Saturday or in the parking lot on Sunday through the next time you show up to church

Discipleship In The Ordinary

SPEAKER_00 31:58

on Sunday. And that can be a difficult process as you're trying to parse through people's knowledge of biblical literacy, their knowledge of the scriptures. Uh, people get it in part, but not sometimes in the whole. So I love talking about the story of scripture and that scripture has one thorough line through it uh that's pointing us to shalom and what God has created us to experience, what sin messes up and what he is restoring in full through Jesus Christ. Um, but then how do you help people see what beliefs they have? And then how do we live out those beliefs with the habits we practice? And so that is also part of the driving motivation behind habits of resistance. Uh, that book is to help people kind of put skin on things, right? What are really practical things I can do to live in the way of Jesus every day? And to me, I love the ordinary. So there are highlight reels for days, but most of your experience with God will happen as you're picking your kids up from school. You're trying to figure out what to cook for dinner, you're trying to pay your bills, you're trying to figure out why your neighbor didn't cut their grass again. Like it's just really ordinary things and the ways we can show up with love and kindness and compassion uh for the world we live in, but also for ourselves. So it's a fun space to talk about because it's what's the content we want people to learn, what are the practical tools we want them to be able to implement, but then also how do we do that? Like, how do we as leaders uh make those things happen in our churches?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I think that is one of the most profound questions and quandaries of our age, because I think the church has done a poor job in discipleship overall. And you know, one of my biggest contentions in modern evangelical church is who you send in and why is it uh we got to be a send in church? Like who you send in, where they go and what kind of people? What kind of people are these? You know, because doing work with the abuse spaces in coercive control, we see you know, the aftermath of someone who was a poor sent, you know, sending choice because they were not people of character, they were not godly, they had they it's like first Timothy, I'm pretty sure it's First Timothy, where it says, you know, they had the appearance of godliness but denied its power. And so they can say all the pretty words, but they are monsters and their families show the scars and their communities show the scars. And so when I'm looking at, oh, we want to be ascending church, and so many churches say this, this is very much cross-denominational. I go, how do you vet them? How do you disciple them? How do you know their moral character? Now, are we gonna be able to perfectly know? No, we're not Jesus. But I think we can do a much better job of not just like how many baptisms have you had? I could not care less. I love a good baptism, I'm gonna cry every time, but I could not care less about your numbers. Who are the people? Do they look like Jesus? Do they love like him? You know, are they men and women of moral character that, you know, meet the requirements of leaders in scripture? And if they don't, sit them down. Like you should not, or take them back if you already stuck them out there somewhere. Like I it irritates me when some churches are like, they're autonomous. And I'm like, they're autonomous until they do something you don't like. And that's usually like letting a woman speak or something. But you know, then all of a sudden autonomy is just not a thing in the church. I don't understand that at all. And so, you know, I would love to see us really invest in the big C church again. Like this is not specific to any one church, but in care ministry and in what how do we teach people to really press into God? And I think care ministry is one of the easiest and greatest ways to do that because everybody's got something. None of us get out of here unscathed. And then, like when we're in marriage ministry or we're in care ministry or we're in these places, we are looking at how people actually walk out what they believe. And that to me is profound.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah, just because there are a lot of compounding factors I think that make church really difficult in our present moment. Uh, one of them is just the power of a charismatic leader, uh, whether that is a leader or leader air quotes, uh, someone who is really persuasive, uh, really compelling in their communication style. But like you've mentioned, their character doesn't really measure up to their skill. But their skill fills seats, their skill brings in money, um, their skill brings prestige to a particular church or institution. And when those things are mixed together, it can be

Power, Character, And Church Accountability

SPEAKER_00 36:41

hard to make the right decision because the right decision means our church is not going to be as big. The right decision means we might not have as much money and we might not be able to do the things we want to do, or we just won't be as important in the eyes of not even the world, but just church community, uh, the big sea church or our portion of the big sea church and our wing in the house of Christianity. And yeah, I just I think that'll be interesting to see because evangelicals are in uh the eyes or on top of people's minds for not so great reasons. And so what that means to me, one, is that there are a group of folks who are out there writing books now to be able to assess what has happened, um, what decisions we made over generations to get us here, and what's the way back to a more authentic and vibrant reflection of what it means for us to be the people of God and megachurch culture, prestige culture on the internet, um, celebrity pastors, like all of these dynamics I think uh will come into question because sometimes I just think it's the size. And the size of the church makes it difficult uh to do the things we ought to do. But I do think we're gonna have to reckon with that, uh, if if not in the near future, soon after that.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I can see the draw of size in a lot of ways because it does give you more resources to do more things. But my question sometimes is what are you doing with those things? You know, at the end of the day, what does it really look like? And I've heard a lot of talk about, you know, we should go back to because this is much more how it was in the 80s when I was coming up, was you know, bivocational pastors where they have like a traditional day job and then they're pastoring on the side. There's pros to that of just an understanding of what everyone else is living. There are cons to that as well, in that, you know, oftentimes you saw these pastors sacrifice their families on the altar of ministry, which is also not from God. And so, like finding balance can be such a hard space. And I don't think we live in a culture right now that just super loves nuance. It gets real hard to have a nuance take these days. And I think that that's something that as the body, as the believer with a button a pew and not standing on the stage or a cushy chair, it depends on what your church looks like. You know, like what are we doing to hold our leaders accountable, to ask questions, to be curious? And and again, like I'm not a big advocate of like go up to your pastor and like give them the third degree of Spanish Inquisition or whatever, but like and understanding like that their job is also hard. So like I'm passionate about abuse things. I talk about it a lot. I talk to my pastors a lot about it, but I also understand that they're at births and deaths and cancer diagnoses and all of these other things that are not just my area of passion. And so I want to be gracious and give them space for all of the other things that are also on their plate. And I think that as a body of Christ, we can work on that stuff. I think we see that in the book of Acts, right? When the Hellenists came, the disciples, and they're like, bruh, this is not going well. And they were like, okay, we got to assign some people to take care of this job over here so that we can do what the Lord has called us to, but they were not removed from the actual issues. And I think that's something that as the church gets bigger, those in leadership are more removed from the day-to-day. And that is also hard. So how do we keep those things? And it's not an easy answer. It's not at all easy. And so it's something that, like, I think when we have good roundtable opportunities that hopefully include both men and women, that we can talk about those things and talk about the hard and the messy and wrestle through it together because it's a worthy wrestle.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

It definitely, it is definitely a worthy wrestle. And it is, it's one model has pros and cons that the other model doesn't have. And the answer isn't just to swing the pendulum to the other side, which sometimes we're like, oh, let's just go back to what this was. And it's like, well, that had issues too. It's it's the self-awareness and the honesty about the potholes that we can fall into. I think there needs to be honest conversations about power and how there are levels of power that in our humanity will be really difficult for people to hold without doing things that don't align with the way of Jesus. Like really, really difficult. Um, just simply because if you have that many people telling you that you're amazing and that everything you do is great, it's going to be hard to hear the person who says, hey, what you're not doing is not great. Um, and so, yeah, the tensions that we all hold in that round table, having honest discussions, saying, What does it look like for us to move forward in accountability and to recommit ourselves to the things we know to be true? And also, like you previously discussed, being courageous enough. I've said that word a lot. I just feel like we need a lot of courage to live life for the Lord to make the hard decisions. And sometimes the hard decision is to let somebody go, say, hey, this isn't for you, uh, and that the restoration doesn't process doesn't mean they come back to public ministry. Like there's all these things that are very hard, but to do in community with the desire to really honor the things that we say we would believe.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Absolutely. My friend Um Chris Moles, who's a pastor up in West Virginia, says it this way you can serve Jesus at Best Buy. Because sometimes you are just disqualified from ministry, and that is wise and good because that access to power in souls is not for you. And there are other ways to serve the Lord. And, you know, I would love to see more pastors and elders and deacons really look at what are my heart motivations for being in this place and and to get real with themselves. And man, that's a scary conversation. I have to ask myself, what is my motivation for doing this podcast, for writing a book, for doing the things that I do? Because I want honestly, Jesus to go, yeah, your motivations are in line with me. And if I ever hear that they're not, I want to be humble enough to say, oh snap, let me do something different. You know, I have a healthy fear of that scripture in James that says not many should want to be teachers because I'm gonna hold them to a higher standard. Like that's some scary stuff. And if I have fear in my heart, I would hope that others have fear, you know, other leaders have fear in their heart of that same thing. Because it's it's a worthy wrestle, it's a worthy tension to always check in on.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Yep, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

What would you say if you could do anything in this whole wide world, if you were like, I can go do this in my ministry, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Oh, I love meeting with women who lead in their church. Um, and so that could be the woman who's on staff, the woman who is volunteering enough that she practically is on staff. It is the woman who's just trying to figure out what it is to help her neighbor uh read the Bible more and walk with her while she's dealing with a difficult marriage or difficult motherhood or just whatever. Um, I love talking to those women and coming alongside to care, to encourage,

Championing Women Who Lead

SPEAKER_00 43:58

to uplift, to resource. And so just traveling across the country and hearing what God is doing in their lives and the areas of need and the conversations that they may not be able to have with their the people that they are serving because you have to have these levels of appropriate disclosure with people. Um, and it's like, hey, let's talk about the hard thing. Let's talk about that hard thing with the people who are supposed to be caring for you and it's not going the way it should. And how can you remain encouraged? Let's let's celebrate what God has done in your life. Let's help you grow, right? Let's get you some professional development. Uh, because a lot of times for women in ministry, that's not easily easy to find. Um, let's do all those things. And to just be the person who is your champion from the back and saying, you can do it. The mission that God has for you is not too big for you to do. It's too big for you to do on your own, but the Holy Spirit's gonna help you do it. And he's gonna do amazing things from for you. And that's what I would do all day, every day. Uh, because I know what it's like to be in that seat. I know what it is like to do that and long for someone to help and come alongside, but I also get a lot of joy and seeing people do what God created them to do.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

That's amazing. I love that so much. If there is one thing you're like, I don't ever want to do this again, so I hope I never have to, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Uh plan a party. Like I uh in my first ministry role, I was I led a singles ministry. And a lot of singles ministry is just is is discipleship. Singles ministry to me is discipleship. But people just want good community, which means you gotta plan stuff for them to hang out. I'm not the hangout person. You don't want me emceeing your event. It's going to be a lot of just like it's the work called information about Jesus. Uh and so yeah, I'm not the person to figure out how to plan the party. But if you want somebody to pray for the party before it starts, I'm your girl.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

So you're the party pre-prayer.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, I am not the party planner. I'm not exactly that's me.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

That's awesome. What is your favorite book of the Bible to teach?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Oh, I am going to, it changes. And so I will say my favorite book now is Jonah. And so Jonah to me is can just be reduced depending upon how long you were in the church, uh, to just the kid's story or just it's just about this fish. And having been in it uh for the past year and seeing how intentional the author was to tell the story, like the parallelism, um, the the words he uses intentionally, like the word for uh Jonah's displeasure within of being saved, is is a derivative or

Why Jonah Keeps Surprising Us

SPEAKER_00 46:41

similar to the word he uses for his pleasure at the plant. Like the the author is doing these things to show uh how wild some of the things Jonah is doing, that everybody in the book who does what's right is not the people who are following Yahweh, and the one who is is not doing what's right. And so what I see through the book though is God's persistence in trying to help Jonah get the message, get what he's trying to say, and this invitation, the book ends with a question that doesn't get answered. And I'm not teaching through it, and one of the things I love is teaching through something before I write on it just helps keep me really honest. Like you can't say things. It's like, well, this actually doesn't work with people. Like it's an idea, but it's teaching it with people helps. And I was like, man, I have to leave this with not just hitting people every time with the scriptures. Like, how can I find conviction and compassion? And so to me, the point of compassion was the question is an invitation to come back in the right relationship. The fact that he asks the question and doesn't just find another prophet to go deliver his message. Also, if you don't know what Jonah's about, it's a book about uh, if you're listening, um, about a prophet who had a message to give he didn't want to give. And so he runs away from God's mission on his life, and the Lord brings him back uh in really dramatic ways. And throughout the book, the Lord is bringing him back into realizing that walking according to his way is what's best for him. Uh, and that grace belongs to everyone, even the people we think don't deserve it. Uh so so yeah, it's a great book. There's so much in there. I think it was a discovery process that's helped me see the immensity of God's grace and maybe the bigness of the cross that I don't always uh see as well as I should.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

I think Jonah is such a fascinating book because it doesn't end with it's it's not tied up at a bow at the end at all. And I also love that the cows repented. Like, I mean, like it's a wild book. When you read it, you're like the cows were in sack closet. That's wild, you know. And I think that there's so much, and even in the New Testament, there are callbacks from Jesus to that particular story from Paul, to that particular story from you know, just the New Testament writers. And it is fascinating when you start to weave together the narrative of scripture, you know, and and what is relatively a short book, Jonah's not super long, it's an easy read. I mean, not an easy read, it's a quick read. Jonah's a quick read. Yeah, it's you know, and I think that it's interesting. And I think it's interesting that, like so many Bible stories, that sucker got sanitized in the children's Bible in such a big way. And you're like, Yeah, like he was in a fish and he got yakked out on the yard on this, and then he went and did the thing, and you're like, oh, but that's not the whole story. That's not the whole story. It shows that tapestry of the human heart and our own biases and struggles. And you know, I think it's there's a lot of application, not only for them, but for us. And, you know, like it's just a fascinating book. I'd love to hear you teach through it. I'd I'd I'd be there for it. I'd be in.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

That just really it's it was fun to discover. I think sometimes you think, you know, especially if you've been in the church for a long time, you're like, oh yeah, I've heard it before, but it's like, no. Like the Lord challenged me in really good ways walking through this book.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah. I it was 26 years ago, a pastor, he was actually a very wicked man who ended up being pretty abusive. But like I like to tell people, like, look, if God can talk from a donkey, he can talk through any jackass, it's not a problem. Um, you know, and this particular pastor, he's like, You're a pastor's daughter, and you've never read through the word of God, like cover to cover. And so he dared me to do it in six months. So I did. And it changed everything for me. And I've read through the Bible cover to cover. This is my 26th year doing it. And I don't say that because I'm some kind of cool. I say that because every time I read through it, I learn something new or a scripture hits me differently, even if it's really familiar. And I try to do it these days in different translations so that I hear it differently because it's easy. Like, you know, you had said, I think this is the New King James, which it was because that's the Bible I learned from when I was a kid. And, you know, but like looking at something in the CSB or the ESV or the NLT or the message really brings it in a different light at times and helps us defamiliarize ourselves with text that might now be wrote and hear it a little bit differently. And so I'm a big fan of get curious and look at it as if you've never read it before and go, like, if I didn't know anything, if I was, if I had just been dropped off by aliens and had never seen this before, what would I come up with now? What might I learn now? And that can be really fun, you know, and really explorate explorative and also like bring in that delight we were talking about earlier, where it's like, oh, I see something different of God here that I didn't previously know or hadn't landed, even if I knew some part of it.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

It's a fun thing for sure. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Well, Elizabeth, you're a delight. And I hope we get to talk to you again because I I'm hopeful that folks listening to this, if they did not know who you are, will go out and get all of your books and read them or listen to them on audible because it is so wonderful the way that you teach the word to me helps it have legs and light and feel like I can access it and and just it it's it it just helps me see Jesus. And I think that's the greatest gift for any teacher of the word is that you help us see Jesus. And so thank you for that. Thank you for doing that. And so we'll have all your contact stuff and find you stuff and find your book stuff in the show notes. And thank you for hanging out with us here on Hey Tabby.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

And we will see the rest of y'all next time on our next episode of Hey Tabby. So make sure that you are liking this and subscribing it and following it and all the things that you're supposed to do so that you don't miss anything at all. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H E Y T A B I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.