The Hard Truth About Suffering - What Kids and Adults Really Need to Know

What does suffering really mean, and what do kids and adults actually need to hear about it?

In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Beth Broom, licensed professional counselor, trauma care expert, and author of 10 Questions About Pain and Suffering: 30 Devotions for Kids, Teens, and Families (Crossway), for an honest, hope-filled conversation about suffering, parenting, healing, and faith.

Beth shares why she wrote this devotional, how families can use it together (not just handed to a kid), and why learning about suffering before it hits is so important. You'll also hear a rich discussion about what healthy parenting through pain actually looks like, including why kids can handle more honesty than we think, why you shouldn't make your child your emotional support person, and how to stay connected to your teenager even when conversations happen at 11 PM.

Whether you're a parent, a trauma survivor, a counselor, a pastor, or someone trying to make sense of your own suffering, this episode is for you.

Find Beth:

📖 10 Questions About Pain and Suffering by Beth Broom: https://amzn.to/4lW6Bu3

Christian Trauma Healing Network: https://christiantraumahealingnetwork.org/

Beth's podcast: Counsel for Life: https://podcasts.apple.com/u

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby, and I'm super, super excited that you're here. And I am super, super excited to be with one of my friends here that some of you might know, but if you don't, you're gonna get to know her because she is amazing. This is Beth Broom. She is a licensed professional counselor, counselor supervisor. She's a certified clinical trauma care professional, level two. She is the executive director of Bridgehaven Counseling Associates in Durham, North Carolina, where she and her team offer counseling for trauma, healing, grief, depression, family and couple care, anxiety, OCD, and other struggles. Basically, if you got it, they help you. Beth is the founder and director of the Christian Trauma Healing Network, which is a nonprofit organization designed to bring trauma care and healing to Christians in the church and in society. She also co-hosts the very awesome podcast, Council for Life, which engages in conversations about mental health and the Christian life. And she is the author of 10 questions about pain and suffering, 30 devotions for kids, teens, and families. That was published by Crossway. Beth, welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

So glad to be with you, Tabby.

Why Write A Kids Suffering Devotional

SPEAKER_01 2:29

It's so exciting to be here. And it's just good to see your face. It's always good to see your face. I always just love being around you. You are a wise and fun woman, which is always such a cool combination. Let's jump in and talk about your book. Your book is, I love that it's for children, teens, and families. And I would take it one step further and say for people in general, what brought you to write this devotional?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Well, it definitely was not uh my plan necessarily. I was actually approached by a dear friend who works with Crossway, and he had started the series. Uh, his name's Champ Thornton, and he wrote the first book in the series called 10 Questions about Salvation. So the goal of the series is to create a set of devotions for kids, teens, and families on topics that are hard to understand. Basically, it's like it's it's theology, deep theology at a level that kids can understand. And so he wrote the salvation book. He approached me one year at a conference and just said, Hey, if you were going to write a book for kids and teens, what would it be about? And I said, Well, suffering. And he, and then, you know, lo and behold, it wasn't too long that he invited me to consider actually doing it. And then I thought, what was I thinking? This is really hard. I mean, like, I talk about suffering all the time with people and with kids, but writing it down, and by the way, each devotion is 300 words. So you pick a verse like Romans 5, where he talks about rejoicing in our suffering because suffering produces hope, you know, hope, endurance, hope, you know, that kind of thing. And it's like, wow, that's a really hard passage. And if you're in the middle of suffering, it does not feel good. It stings. So, how do I talk about that with children with illustrations and wording that kids can understand? Oh, by the way, I only get 300 words. It's it was tough, but it was a really great project. It was great for my soul. It was beautiful to get to think about the combination of my two worlds, like the combining of my two worlds, because before I was a counselor, I was an elementary school teacher. So I love kids, I love talking to kids. And so it was, it was really, it was a really fun project, very hard project, but fun. So I kind of got pulled into it. Um, but then man, I'm just, I'm so grateful to have written it. And you're right. I mean, you said it's for people. I've received a lot of feedback from adults who said, you know, I got this book for my kid, but then I read it and I was like, oh, I need to like, I don't understand these things. I I want to actually dig into these concepts. And it's in language that's very simple, it's in bite-sized pieces. So people who are struggling deeply, um, it's a little easier to digest, you know, because it's small sections. So uh yeah, I mean, it ended up being wider than what the title actually indicates.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Absolutely. I mean, I I'll just give an example of one of the questions where I was like, oh, and it's question five in the book, which is when Christians suffer, is it punishment? And that is a question that everybody asks. You know, whether you're a kid, whether you're an adult, it doesn't matter because it can feel that way, especially if you know some of your choices led to suffering. It's like, oh, well, God's just punishing me. And I and so in 300 words, you have to unpack this deep topic. Oh my goodness, I can see how hard that would be.

How Families Should Use The Book

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yes, it was definitely hard. And honestly, so I've had people ask me, you know, how what's the best way to use this? Do you just hand it to a kid? No. So my recommendation is a parent and a kid read it together. And then the reflection I questions and like the concepts, you know, giving a space to talk it out. Because I think even, you know, as a mom myself, it's like I need sometimes I need like a hook or like a little bit of information to go before me before I try to have that that hard conversation with my kid. And so this provides just a little bit of the almost like setting the table for the conversation. Um and so yeah, I think that's a good way to do it. The other thing is, you know, I often tell people, hey, it'd be great if you could read this before big suffering hits instead of waiting until after, because once it's after, you've already started to develop some of these potentially false beliefs. And, you know, the confusion leads to to doubt or the confusion leads to finding an answer that's not correct, you know, that kind of stuff. So let's learn these things as best we can when we're not actually in the middle of suffering. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's it's challenging for sure. And and I tried to choose questions that I get from adults all the time, you know, as well. Because you're right, it is universal.

No Platitudes God Is Near

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah. And, you know, for so many people who have been spiritually abused, experienced church hurt, and things like that, entering back in with God can feel really risky and tricky. And one thing I really like about this particular devotional is it doesn't spiritually bypass. It gets very honest in how you did it. It's age appropriate too littles, you know, little or children, but it's so approachable for people who maybe you're like, I don't know how I feel right now.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, I tried, and and honestly, one of the things the editor said was, you're a little bit redundant in this particular area. And I was like, Yeah, that's on purpose. Redundant in the area of God is near, God loves you. Whatever you might feel about him being far away or not caring, um, is is is potentially a temptation towards something that's not true, right? So how do we how do we continue to beat the drum? I mean, that was the drum that were actually two drums that I beat throughout the book that my editor said, Hey, um, you're saying this too much. I'm like, sorry, this is what we're gonna do. And fortunately, they were like, Great, it's fine, you can stay there. But the two things that the God is near, he loves you, he wants to bind up the brokenhearted. That's his, that's he, he loves that, that's who he is. And then secondly, you're not alone and you're not meant to walk alone. And what does it look like to allow others to come alongside you? And then I even, one of my favorite ones, one of my favorite sections in there of the question is how do I help somebody else? So even kids, they can come alongside someone else who's suffering. And second Corinthians one, comfort someone else with the comfort with which they've received and that idea of community in the midst of suffering was the other thing that I just beat all throughout the book. Um, but you're right. I was trying so hard not to. I mean, we don't we don't need platitudes in this in this area. We don't need quick fix answers or trite responses to things like this. These are really hard things that require a lot of wrestling. And so we need to be able to have the honest conversation. Um, so I tried. It was it was hard. It was really hard. If I'd had double the number of words, you know, in the book, it would have been a little easier, I think, but was trying to condense it and keep it, keep it tight.

Art And The Body In Healing

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, absolutely. You know, as a therapist, one of the ways I like to use this particular book is to bring an embodied element to it, which you already have a fair amount of in there, you know, realistically. But there are some things, you know, some of the reflections that lend themselves to an art project. And I really love that. I love that for kids and for adults because it exercises a different part of your brain than just your thy-thinky parts, right? We get back into that limbic system, we have the act of creation along with the thinking, which I think helps things root into our souls much better than just like I can talk to you about it. And there's so much value in talking and in sharing stories and in thinking, but there is immense value in that holistic perspective of and let me also involve my body in understanding this truth in a different way or wrestling with this truth.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I um I tried to include here's some things you can do, you know, to kind of exercise these concepts. But even some of the illustrations um that I gave, even allowing a child to draw, for example, one of the illustrations that I that I give is the idea of, you know, with God allowing suffering to happen. What does that look like? What does that mean? And so I use the illustration of like the earth has an atmosphere, but it's limited. And you can see it from space. The ring around the edges of the earth is the atmosphere. Think of that almost like the enemy has power, but it's limited. He's the prince of the power of the air, but he he God tells him where to stop. He can, there's only so far he can go. And so, even allowing a child to sit, just saying like something like, let's draw that. And now let's talk it out while you're drawing, like talk out. What do you think about God? You know, God allowing suffering to happen. This is a really hard topic. And drawing something very practical and real, but then being able to move towards like, what is it like for you? What colors would you use to describe uh what it feels like to suffer and be and to feel alone? And I've had kids even do, we almost do like a portrait of you and God. And like, where are you sitting? Where is God sitting? How would you, how would you draw that to kind of illustrate this idea of do I feel near to God? Do I feel far away from God? Am I looking at him? Am I looking away from him? You know, these kinds of like artistic types of things that we can do with kids to just allow them to explore. Because again, this is a wrestle that we have to do. It's not information that they need to download. Um, it's very emotional.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah. And I think as a parent, so whether you're a therapist going through this with a client, whether you're a parent going through it with a kiddo, or a parent going through it for yourself. So sometimes I think I know my experience as a parent when I get those tough questions and I'm in the middle of suffering myself or struggling, you know, because things happen in families where we experience traumatic events as a family, and we all are going to have to process it in our own way. And so that is a way for you and your children and spouse and you know, friends and whatever, your community to wrestle together with it. And, you know, I always encourage parents, like, don't dictate the colors that people use because that is a fascinating study in general. One of my favorite things to ask people is where do you feel it? What color is it, and what shape would you say it is, whatever it is in your body, whatever feeling. And then drawing it out. And, you know, I might think of sad as blue, but my client might write it as yellow or green. And so to say, tell me why you chose that color is so interesting and fascinating to hear how they're working it through their body in general. And so I would just say to any parents listening, if they make the, you know, atmosphere around the earth like hot pink, yeah, ask, just be curious and be like, maybe they just like that color. If they're five, they might just be like, that is how I saw it in my head. So they're out, you know, like we do not need to like distill it down to what it should be in our mind, but to let the other person have that experience of whatever it is. Yeah.

When Parents Are Hurting Too

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah. And what you said about um you were talking about parents and we we experience suffering together as a family. That's that's something that I've considered a lot and thought about. It's not really part of the book, but it was it was some feedback that I got and some conversations I had post-writing the book from people who'd read it. This idea that, like, okay, as a as a parent, let's say we've lost a family member tragically. The kid needs to be able to process that, but I'm processing it too. I'm really hurting. So everything my kid says about it stings so much. Like I feel it deeply in every so how am I going to be there for them when I'm really having a very hard time? And so I've just been thinking a lot about and I talk a lot about in various settings the idea of like, okay, but you need your own support system and you also need your connection to the father to be able to work those things out. And I mean, I think we we don't give kids enough credit. Like they know we're when we're suffering. So why lie to them? Why try to like put on a brave face and pretend that you're not affected? Actually, that that's the opposite of helpful. They actually need to see that we are human people and that we're having a hard time too, without us making them responsible or putting on them a feeling of like, oh, I need to make mom feel better or whatever. That that is not healthy. But to be able to just say, hey, yeah, this is hard for me too. I'm having a hard time too. Let's be in this together. And to give parents the freedom to not feel like they have to kind of like put on the armor so that they can care for their kid. Um, but they also need their own place to process. And the kid is not the person to do that with something, you know, like their their little brains and bodies and emotions are not meant to carry heavy, heavy loads that adults carry. So having other adults that you that can come alongside you in your suffering so that you're able to do that processing work. And then when you're with your kid, you can just be honest and say, I'm having a hard time too. So I think that's really important aspect of communal suffering.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Absolutely. And they and I'm going to get my own support. And that's true, even if your kids are older teenagers or adults, right? You know, it is not appropriate for parents to use their children as a crutch. Right. And I I just I think we sometimes do it because they're like a safe person. You know, I I see a lot of parents do this. This is, you know, in trauma care, this is something you see frequently because no but there's no playbook for this stuff. There's no like, we don't have a tragic experience or series of them or years of them, decades of them, depending on what's happened. You know, and you get a little playbook of, and now here's your recovery plan, and here's what you do, and here's what you don't do, and all of that. And I think the temptation can be there because you love this person, they are a safe person to you. Kids genuinely want their parents to be happy no matter how old they are, right? Like we always want to please mom and dad and the caregivers in our life most of the time. And so we can end up in a place if we're not being mindful that we're putting our kiddo in a position that they're not meant for. And so that it's no criticism to parents. We all can do it, but like to look at it and go, if I am doing this, I need to maybe make a shift.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Because I I do think there is that. Oh, this, you know, I mean, parents, we we're so used to pouring out to our children. And it's a pretty thankless job, if we're honest, oftentimes. So to have it it could feel really good to have your kid take care of you for a change, or to, you know, to go out of their way to, you know, do something kind. And often that's that behavior is praised, right? Like it's uh seen as, oh, what a what a loving kid. And it's like, well, they might be doing it because they're afraid, they might be doing it because they feel like responsible, like it's their job. This is not healthy. Um I I think, you know, and even in my in my own history, there's a member of my family that after I had children, anytime they would say goodbye to my kids, they would say, take care of mommy. I'm like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, not your job, not your job. Um, so but but it is a common thing, right? To like, you know, be kind and do whatever. And I don't even know if she meant take care of me, but it's like that can be construed as, oh, it's their job to make sure that I'm okay. And it's not. So I think you're right. It is a it is a temptation, it's an understandable temptation to be like, oh, sure would feel good if my kid would, you know, write me a sweet note. I love you, mommy, have a great day. That would be awesome. And yet they're not responsible for my emotions.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Absolutely. And look, if your kids do write you a sweet note, mommy, have a great day, or daddy have a great day, or whatever. That's not also doesn't mean you're doing something wrong or that's a problem. So like it's so easy to get off the middle path at times for you know, just living life. And I think parents who care can definitely get turned into a giant pretzel, essentially, when they're like, I don't want to do too much or too little or gosh. And like there's so many people that will just shame your parenting, whether they should or not. And so I think a lot of it comes down to intentionality, taking a deep breath, and the art of repair when you mess it up. Because we will mess it up as parents.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

That's right. Yep. They can also, in the same way they can sense our suffering, they can also sense our franticness and anxiety of like the nervousness of doing the wrong thing or seeming like we're this or that. It's like, oh my goodness, like I wanna. I think of family, I say this all the time to my kids. We're a team. Our family is a team. And my role, I'm the, you know, maybe I'm the the quarterback or I'm the guard on the basketball team. But um, that doesn't mean that everybody else doesn't also have things they're doing, and we're trying to function together for a specific purpose moving forward. So that means I'm gonna make mistakes. Um, just because I'm the quarterback doesn't mean that I'm always gonna get it right. So I'll I'm I'm gonna have to ask forgiveness and and seek repair. And I think uh uh I I heard it said that good parents get it right about 50% of the time, and the other 50% they know how to repair and ask forgiveness. And that was so comforting to me. Yes.

Repair Apologies And Adult Children

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Absolutely. And I think, you know, depending on the house that you grew up in, you may not have had repair modeled to you. You know, I know in the household that I grew up in, like there was never an I'm sorry, there was never, it might be I'm sorry you feel that way, but it wasn't, you know, like I really messed that up, I blew it, and that is really damaging. And so if you're like, I don't want to do it that way, you know, you might also start, you know, and this is true for so many trauma survivors, apologizing for breathing. I mean, trauma survivors do that anyway. Yep. And it's like, okay, well, breathing is allowed, and you know, let's look at did you actually do something that warrants a repair? And sometimes that is something that you have to learn over time is oh, this is uh this is where I do need to ask for repair and lean into repair and do some work there, or this is where I don't. And sometimes, and this is an interesting thing, as your children get older, you don't know what you might need to repair for that you blew when they were younger because in the moment they didn't know, and then they go to therapy themselves and they're like, Yeah, that was not helpful. And then you have to go, oh, and this is I think we're seeing this in the estrangement culture now. Now, some kids they absolutely need to have boundaries where they go no contact without question. I've seen some of those families where I would say, Yes, this is warranted, it's appropriate, it's horrible. And then there are some where I'm like, maybe you went a little too fast on that one. And you know, but for parents, like when you are suddenly getting complaints leveled against you, you're like, What is happening? And I don't remember that, and you don't know what to do. And so I would just encourage parents to take a breath and like hear what your kiddo is saying if they're bringing something to you. And even if you don't remember and if it's something that stuck out to them, then maybe just go, wow, like that was certainly not my intent. And I'm really sorry, and like sit with it, even though it's uncomfortable. Cause I think sometimes our bent is to defend ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah. Well, and if a child, even like an adult child, but certainly a teenage or or younger child comes to their parent and says, This hurt me, what a gift. Like I would I think based on sitting in in counseling sessions with people, probably 80 to 90% of the time, these people are not, they're not telling the other party, hey, this hurt. Like if you're saying that, there's two reasons you could be doing it. One, you just want to accuse and drop a hammer, or you're actually hoping for something better. So, like I find that a lot of people, when they, when they're confronting parents, especially later in life, it's like they're actually trying to create repair. So on the receiving end of that, it's like, wow, I I want to be grateful that they're not. Over there just thinking about what a horrible person I am. They're actually coming to me so that we can try to do something new to change the pattern. You know, what a gift that could be. Now, there are people that confront in order to drop a hammer. Um, and that's a different scenario. We as counselors are when we see that with our clients, we go, okay, let's, that's your moment of like, let's take a breath and you know, let's think about what's the motive here and what what do you want it to produce in the end. But yeah, I mean, the opp opportunity, I know for me, even as a both as a counselor and also as a staff member of a church, when somebody would come to me and say, Hey, you hurt me, oh my gosh. I mean, hard to hear, but I'm so glad. I'd rather that than for you to go, you know, leave a Google review or something or go tell all your friends what a terrible person I am without giving me the opportunity to ask forgiveness, to humble myself. So um, man, I hope that for parents, I think obviously we see that modeled in scripture, what it looks like to actually do that kind of work of creating repair. And I know little kids, it's different for little kids, but as they get older, we do want to create environments that are conducive for honest conversation all across the board, right? And and to be able to recognize that this kid is gonna start thinking for himself or herself. And I would rather be in earshot of that. I'd rather be within earshot of that. And if I am super defensive every time they come to me and they're frustrated, they're gonna learn. There, I'm teaching them. They're gonna learn that I am not a person they can talk to. And so over time, we want to, and also, I know I've talked to parents who are like, it's too late. I've already done that. And now the kid, I'm like, yes, but this is what's beautiful. There's so much pliability in that relationship. You actually can start small, you can ask forgiveness, and then you can start trying to be a listening ear, to have an open door for your kids and to provide spaces. And honestly, I tell parents, provide the spaces that are not high risk, right? It's literally like you go, you go upstairs and you see your kid playing a video game and you sit down and say, What's this about? Like, tell me what you're what you're playing. What do you what do you love about this? What are the characters like? What's your which is your favorite kid? Like just knowing the things they care about speaks volumes that I care about the things that you care about. And that then can lead into deeper, deeper things. It's not too late. Like, I like to tell parents that all the time. It's not too late. It's not.

unknown 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

And even with your older teenagers, like, look, here's the deal they are gonna come into your room at 11 p.m. to have this deep conversation. Right. When you're starting to sleep and have to get 5 a.m. And that is like we think all of the not sleeping happens when they're babies. Not true. It a lot of it happens when they're 17 because there's a lot going on. They're in that process of differentiation, which isn't a bad thing, right? Them, and this is this is hard for me as a parent. Um, I think it's hard for every parent. Maybe there are parents who are like, no, that was the easiest time of my life. Well, God bless you, because it was not for me. You know, but like where your kid may feel very differently than you about a lot of things. And how do you have that space when they are not art soulbringer uppers, right? Because they haven't learned that skill and they're not teaching interpersonal effectiveness in high school, which I wish they would. But gosh, man, could we teach people how to people? That would be a 10 out of 10 for me. That would be awesome. Um, but they come in and it's a messy introduction to whatever's happening, and you're like, I don't know what's going on, you know, and they may feel very passionately about something, especially in this world where there's so much feedback and so much stuff happening in all the TikToks and reels and Snapchats and all the things, and come in and just be like, I can't believe fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And you're just like, Well, I wasn't planning on having a deep political and socio, you know, sociological based off of something you saw on TikTok, which often is not even correct.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

11 30 p.m. Right, which I mean I'm no good after 8 p.m. This is why I do not do therapy late in the day, because that would be good for exactly no one, and you know, and so but as a parent, you gotta hold space with it. And I think those are those immediate prayers that we do, Jesus help, you know, where it's just like, I don't know what to do, God help me out, and then to hold that space. And right now, there's such divisiveness, division, and languaging, even, you know, with some of those TikToks. So if your kid comes to you and is like, with all of the things, then to not get activated yourself or to tell them it's a poorly thought-out political argument or whatever it might be for you at the moment, that to just sit and hold that space and go, Yeah, and I I mean, I will, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

And that's I think I s I say this to couples, I say this to parents. We talk about it with, you know, in these scenarios, it's like whatever they're bringing to you at 11 p.m., it's a bid for connection. More than, you know, like, yes, they may want to talk about a political thing or a thing that happened at school or circumstances, but if I can keep in my brain, okay, this is about us. This is about us making a connection before I'm correcting you or talking about something intellectual. I'm connecting with the fact that you feel something very strongly. You are having a strong response and you're bringing that to me, which means you've somehow trusted, you're trusting me with something very vulnerable in this moment. So let me do that first. It's not that we won't ever get to talking about politics or whatever, but in that first few moments, I think what we do is we define, we're defining who we are in that moment. I'm, I'm your, I'm your biggest fan, I'm your greatest advocate, I'm with you, regardless of what you're feeling, even if it's incorrect, I'll put that in air quote, because you know, there's no such thing. But but this idea of like, I'm feeling this because of something that I read, which the thing I read was incorrect. Okay, but you're still feeling it. Something in you is poked, has been poked. And I don't want to keep poking that thing in a different direction. I want to actually lean in. Now, can I just pause and say, I'm not good at this sometimes? Like we just, as parents, it's like, especially if it's something we feel deeply about in a different direction, suddenly we're now we're in an argument and we're missing that idea that connection can come first. Um, I'm bad at it too, especially late at night. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And that I hit about nine o'clock and I'm like, nope.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

No more hard conversations, no more emotions. Everyone needs to calm down and go to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Right. I will I will take this back up with you at 8 a.m. tomorrow. Yeah. And sometimes that actually is the right answer, you know. Like to say, I hear you. And gosh, this is such a conversation I really want to have. I can't have my best conversation with you at 11:30 p.m. You know, can you think about this a bit more? I'd love to hear more about it. Let's talk tomorrow. Do you want to grab ice cream? Because, like, man, if it's an older teenager, like we're not doing an 8 a.m. conversation either. Let's be real. I've never, maybe you're the teenager that gets up at five. Most don't, you know. And so, like, maybe we go, hey, let's get ice cream in the afternoon when everybody's at their best and let's bring this up more and talk more about it. And I think as parents, especially as kids get older, it is so hard to move from I need to be more directive to I need to be more of a coach. And when they're little, it's like, hey, we still try to give them choices like, would you like this outfit or this outfit? You know, and so, but there's still more of a container, there's more of a I need you to do this, or we have to put our shoes on, or those kinds of things. But when they get older, especially when they're getting close to like leaving our house and going to college or whatever they're gonna do, going into the workforce to say, I'm gonna coach you more when we're so used to being more of a manager. And that's a shift that we have to think about and it brings grief. And that's another thing I tell parents often is that change is going to bring sadness because they're not where they used to be. They're not your littles anymore. They'll always be your baby, right? Hopefully. Hopefully, you love them like that. But there is that I'm also opening my hand and you may make some choices that I'm not good with, but I always tell families connection before correction. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Well, and if I think about as a as a former school teacher, like you're the younger kids, you're teaching them a lot more information. The older they get, you're teaching them critical thinking skills where they can do it themselves. And that's what we're doing in in life too. So if you have your teenager coming in and saying, Well, I read this online and this thing that's going on in the world, it's making me really mad. And they're they've got tunnel vision, because that's a thing that we all experience. But teenagers, wow, there's just it's real easy because they just don't know the world yet. They don't understand. So the tunnel vision that's happening, to be able to give them opportunity to talk that out and widen their their view of it for the sake of wisdom. Like you, you're gonna need, you're gonna, this is gonna happen for the rest of your life. You're gonna see something, you're gonna feel angry, you're not gonna know what to do, you're gonna feel helpless, anxious. So, how do you choose wisdom in those moments? And if I'm until they, the second they turn 18 and move out of my house, if I'm telling them what wisdom is and saying, just believe me, they're not gonna develop that skill. So giving them the opportunity to actually talk it out, think it out, inviting them to consider other options and you know, get some peripheral vision about this thing that you're struggling with. That is that is good and right. And you're right, there is grief. I remember the first time with my daughter when, man, I wanted to just come in and rescue her. I was ready. She was in eighth grade. And I mean, it was a situation where I was like, I'm gonna come in and I'm I'm I'm mama bear, right? And I felt the Holy Spirit prompting me, like, just give it a second. Ask her, what do you think is wise in this situation? And it had it was a relational situation that was very toxic. And she said, I think I need to remove this person from my phone. I think I need to not in be a part of that person's life anymore. And it's hard and painful, but I need to get rid of it. I was like, Yes, she did. Like, I didn't, if I had told her to do that, if I had stepped in and dropped the hammer as a mama bear, she would not have had the opportunity to actually decide that for herself. Now, sometimes our kids choose what is unwise, which is really painful. That's a whole different thing. But in that moment, she, I mean, like, she made a good decision. And I did not have, I wasn't making it for her. And that was a huge defining moment that we actually pointed back to throughout high school. Like, you remember that? And like, that was such a wise decision. You saw the the after effects of that and how good that was. What you made a you that was a wise choice. Like it's just it just was a great foundation that got built. And honestly, I was ready to do the totally wrong thing. The Lord had to stop me in my tracks in that moment. Because as parents, we really do, like, we that instinct to to step in and and fix it or make sure it it's goes a certain way. You just can do that less and less the older they get.

Shame Root Causes And Real Change

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Absolutely. And and that is a place of tension for us as parents. And if a parent is listening and is like, yeah, I don't do that very well, and I like get really freaked out and then I can't function and all those things. There may be stories in your own life that have led you to that place, right? So if your parents were incredibly permissive and they and you ended up in really bad places because they were just so neglectful, then you may have to learn like where healthy boundaries lie. Where when do you mama bear, when do you not mama bear, and things like that, and or daddy bear, you know, yeah, whichever whichever bear you may be, you know. That's you know, those things might take some discernment. And that is where getting a good coach or a counselor can be incredibly helpful to just go, I need to disentangle some of my own stuff because it's impacting how I'm able to enter in and I'm having a hard time with it. And that's a beautiful place to be. That is, you know, a really wise choice. And it doesn't mean you're failing or a terrible parent or that you're weak or any of those things. It means that you're wise and you're following what it says in Proverbs about getting good counsel. You know, Jesus did in fact put that in there for us so that we can go, you know, that's not a bad idea, which is such a gift, right? And then you get some feedback from someone who's not in your in your actual head or in your immediate life, which gives people a little more, you know, space to have a different perspective and to invite you into a different perspective or to consider. And good counseling does exactly that. Like, I don't tell people what to do most of the time. Now, there's a couple of times where I'm like, that would be a really bad idea because it's something quite dangerous or whatever. But at the end of the day, a counselor says, here's here's some ways that you can critically think, or here's how this might be playing out in your life and and how you're hearing these things and like let's explore that together. And they're not going to be directive.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yes, that's good. I I I often think that there's so much there, there is so much shame connected to us. I think parenting is an area where the enemy just loves to poke us with shame. But I think this idea that, oh, I it's too late, I've already ruined my relationship with my kid, they don't, they don't respect and trust me, and I I understand why, or like I this or that. Like this, these, this kind of talk, which by the way, in and of itself is making it worse, right? Like the way we talk to ourselves uh can make it worse. But also one of the things, one of the things that I love to do in counseling is to help help counselees consider that there's something more going on here. It's what you were saying, something more going on here than just you're you you don't know what you're doing as a parent or you're you know, you're bad, you don't care, you must not care. Like these interpretations we make of our behavior. If I'm yelling at my kid, um just as an example. So, like if my kid drops something and it's loud and I yell at them and then I'm angry and shaming myself because I they didn't they didn't do anything sinful. Why am I that way? If I go to counseling and my counselor says, Well, I mean, yes, it doesn't mean you don't need to ask forgiveness. If you yelled at your kid, you can you definitely want to create repair there. But what was actually happening in that moment? Oh, I wonder if you were overstimulated. I wonder if the noise and the mess was too much for you in that moment and in a response. So that idea of like, let's consider your whole body, your whole existence. Oh, by the way, did your dad scream at you when you dropped stuff when you were a kid? Oh, that might matter. You know, all of these things that are just sort of filling out stuff that we don't necessarily think about by ourselves, but having somebody else kind of go, I wonder what else is going on, and then to validate and go, actually, that really matters. Um, and it's not an excuse for yelling at your kid, but it certainly helps us map out what's going on so that we can then create, you know, seek healing and growth, uproot some of those false beliefs, plant truth, you know, like all this stuff that we get to do that's so fun. It's just such a fun thing to do in counseling. And I see, I sort of watch sometimes the shame like lift off of somebody when they're like, oh, I don't need to just automatically call myself a bad parent. There's other things happening that are influencing how I'm functioning. And I'd rather heal that completely than to just slap myself on the wrist every time I do it in hopes that I won't do it again. Right. It's not just about behavior modification.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Right. It's it's the root cause, right? Like, you know, and I when I worked in clinical research a million years ago before I became a therapist, we would look for root cause analysis. What caused the problem? Not what do I think caused the problem, but like let me look at all the data around it to figure out how we got here. And so in counseling, I refer to it as what makes this make sense. And when we can figure a lot of that out, then we can uproot those things and go, let's heal what happened to you in childhood or in this traumatic experience or whatever it is that is pushing that the faulty belief that you have about you and the way of the world and whatever it is. And we can do some real change there. Now, my friend Matt Winger, who's uh the clinical director at Begin Again Institute, says it this way the water's gonna go where the ditch is dug. And it my the what I've told counseles for years is you know, we're rerouting the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon and we're digging out the canyon wall with a freaking teaspoon. And so it takes a minute and it feels like things will never change, but it does because eventually we get that river rerouted as we learn new things, as we experience ourselves differently, as we're healed, and then the river does go in a different direction. And in that process of digging, we have to have a lot of grace.

Rebuilding Faith After Spiritual Abuse

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yes, grace and compassion, treating ourselves as friends. That's a hard concept, I think, as believers. Um, but treating yourself as a friend, like you would never talk to your friend the way you talk to yourself or your kid. You never talk to your kid the way you talk to yourself. Um, and we don't even realize the kinds of messages that we're speaking of ourselves. And in that, if I may take it to a spiritual place, our enemy actually is over there going, you know, feeling pretty victorious, right? Like um, I often say I don't really need his help to screw my life up, but he's involved, right? Like we do have an enemy who who tries to accentuate the flesh, yes, and make the flesh louder than the spirit. And so that passage that talks about that we're me we we have to feed the spirit and starve the flesh. Like, what does it look like for us to lean into the truth? And it's so interesting because uh I just I've been thinking so much and doing so much work personally, but then also as I work with clients on, you know, what does it mean for us to truly believe in who God actually is? And I think we talk about that theologically a lot, like you need to believe in his sovereignty and you need to believe in his, you know, his his um uh his kindness and all these things, right? Like we need to believe in the things that he is, the attributes of God. And at the same time, I think, you know, when we when when Jesus says he wants us to pray that we will increase our faith, and even when he tells his disciples that their faith is small, it's connected to their lack of understanding of how much he loves them.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Like this, so faith is deeply tied to if you would talk about believing in God, like having faith, the greatest, like one of the great, I don't know, it maybe it is the greatest, I don't know. I'm still parsing it out, but like I'm thinking about like one of the greatest areas of faith that needs to grow is how much he loves us. Like Paul prays that over the Ephesians church. I pray that you you will be rooted and grounded in love, that you would understand the height and width and depth and length of the love of Christ and that, and that you'd flourish in that and know his love, like really know it. That's Paul's prayer for the church, that you would know the love of Christ. So if we really knew how much he loved us, if we studied that, if we meditated on that, how much would that fuel our confidence, our ability to see ourselves kindly, to see others kindly, like to be able to function and walk in victory and freedom and to heal. You know, it's um I don't know. I just I've just been thinking a lot about that. That like when I pray that God will increase my faith, one of the things I'm automatically praying for is that I will increase in my understanding of who he is and who is he? He's love. He's love, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

I think that is such a key thing. And I think sometimes we think if I just study that, then nothing is really gonna change. But I don't know, orienting ourselves to the truth of God is incredibly changing. And I know in in good ways. And I know for some people who've been really harmed with scripture, that can be really tough because it's been weaponized, right? I always tell you, tell folks, you know, sword of the spirit was not meant to stab other people. That is not what we're supposed to do with it. And so if that's been your experience, I know that it can be hard, but that is where devotional books like yours, the Jesus Storybook Bible, Jen Lyles, The Promises of God, Children's Bible, all of those are really helpful if you maybe can't pick up, you know, an adult Bible and look at parts of scripture at this moment. That there are ways to orient yourself to God's truth that feel less disruptive to your body and to your nervous system while you work toward recovery. And so I just encourage folks like, we don't want Satan to take away what is true goodness. And we don't want to let the abuser who weaponized your good faith, you know, to win in this regard. We don't want to give the enemy that. We want to gently and maybe sometimes super slowly lean back in, you know, even if it's just in little bits and pieces. And we've, you know, we run a lot of groups at our practice, and one of our favorites is this group restore, which is like, how do I deal with what got up-ended in my relationship with God? And we've had multiple participants basically be like, dude, when I started this group, I was ready to throw my Bible across a room. In fact, I might have done that a few times. And as they gently enter back in, like it is life-changing for them because they're like, I am now able to reorient to the God who loves me and is not at all like my abuser. And that is a very powerful place, or like the church that harmed me, or whatever. And and that is taking background that the enemy tried to steal from it. Absolutely. You know, and so I think that's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

And it's okay that it's time it's baby steps, it's the teaspoon digging out the green candy with a teaspoon. It's okay that that's what it is. And sometimes I'll, I'll You know, clients who've experienced incredible vast spiritual abuse, church hurt, things like that. I'll take a passage like I believe I believe it's um Isaiah 34 where it says that the Lord will pick up his lambs and his arms and carry them in his bosom. I'll just read that. It's a such a such a vivid image and just say, what do you does that poke you? What do you think about that? Like, can you can you picture it? Have you ever seen God in that way? It's right there in the Bible. So like ha I mean, we can't really say, oh, that's not who God is. There it is, right there. And so even just giving that space to have a five-minute conversation about like, oh, I'm struggling to believe that. Okay, can you just, even just for a moment, can you picture what would it feel like if that was true? What would it feel like if you were in his bosom? Would that feel good? Would it not feel it might not? So then let's just wrestle. So that's that wrestle again, it's the opening of the door to allow for. And I don't ever, I almost, I just don't think it's wise to do that by yourself, especially if you've had a lot of spiritual abuse, church hurt, things like that. Like if you can find someone who seems a little bit safe and start that conversation or go to counseling where it's their job, hopefully, to be safe, please, Lord Jesus, let that be true. Um, so if that, you know, you find that space where you actually can do that wrestling in a in a place where there's, you know, you're not you're not at a lot of risk, that is a good place to start. Um, and I just don't recommend people think like, oh, I'm gonna just do this work by myself, because it's it's real easy to. I think you used an analogy of like to to sort of move off to one side or the other of the path. It's really easy to do that anyway, but especially if you're trying to do that work alone, and it can also be really discouraging. You probably need another human voice to say, you're doing it. Like, look, you're doing it. Look, look how far we've come. So that so that you're you're seeing truth and having somebody speak that into your life. Yeah, absolutely.

Why Christian Trauma Healing Network Exists

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Healing happens in community, you know, and and how you rebuild your community, especially if your faith community betrayed you, is a slow process, 100%. You know, do it gently. But I definitely agree with finding a safe counselor, even a safe biblical counselor who does not suck. We have some on our team, and you know, those are places that you can enter in and wrestle in beautiful ways with that and and work toward healing. And God wants to heal you. He's not going, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here. Like he's not like giving you a cosmic eye roll. That's not our God at all, but it can feel that way if that's what it, you know, if it if things have been weaponized, it can feel that way. And you know, I would just invite our listeners to maybe consider leaning back in if they have been far away because it's been painful, you know. And again, baby steps, man. It doesn't have to be super fast. God's not like hurrying up. He's he's so gracious and patient. The old testament is the literal actual evidence of this over and over and over again. I want to transition us to talk about the Christian trauma healing network. I love this organization so very much. And I want to just It loves you. It also loves me. I want to talk about like like how you started it and who it's for, because I think that it doesn't get enough press, and I think more people need to know about it.

Membership Training And Certification

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Okay. Well, thanks. Um, while we are still pretty young, we're a little over four years old, and the way Christian Trauma Healing Network began was sort of by accident. I uh in the in the wake of uh COVID, I decided to do an online training for helpers. And really, I designed it more for like lay helpers and you know, just really anybody that was working with a trauma survivor. So even though it was very clinically informed, because that's what I am, um, I I wanted it to be really in a language that was conducive and helpful for folks that maybe didn't go to grad school and learn about counseling. So I just randomly put it, posted something on Facebook and said, Hey, I'm gonna do this training. It's long, like a weekender, Friday night, all day Saturday, if anybody wants to do it. And I had 85 people sign up for it. So then I was like, wow, I guess somebody's hungry for this. And the group was amazing. They were incredible. And it was all, it spanned all across. There were pastors, there were advocates, there were people who worked in, um, I think I had somebody that worked in a homeless shelter, you know, like just people who wanted to learn about trauma from a, from a biblical perspective, um, but also that was clinically informed and had a lot of, you know, some scientific research alongside it. And so um, after that training, those 85 people, a lot of them in their feedback said, hey, could we have, could we make a Facebook group so that we can connect with each other and and continue to do consultation and things like that. So I created a Facebook group. And um, that Facebook group that was in July, and that Facebook group by October had reached, I think, 500 people. So I was like, I don't know what's happening. This is weird. And so we just started praying. Um, and the Lord really developed a vision for equipping people helpers in Christ-centered care for trauma survivors. And so it is a, it is, it is an equipping ministry. So we don't, we don't provide counseling for for trauma survivors, but we equip people helpers to do that work from a deeply Christian perspective. Um, so we we just started, we started with it actually, our very first webinar was on spiritual abuse. I just, again, I just threw it out there to that Facebook group and they spread the word and things started happening. So we decided to make it a membership-based thing. That's how we pay our bills. I do not like to fundraise. So, as a nonprofit, we decided to make it membership-based. Um, our members say pay$15 a month. Um, or if they want it, they're all the webinars included every year, they pay$25 a month. And they have access to every single thing we've ever created, which um is a lot at this point. We've been going for four years. So every month we put out a new content piece. Sometimes it's a worksheet, sometimes it's a handout, sometimes it's a guide or an assessment of some sort. Some of them are for the helper themselves. Like we've created assessments for helpers to kind of clue into am I burning out? Like, am I okay? And assessments that you can do with a counselee to just kind of gauge how's their daily functioning um related to their trauma, that kind of stuff. Um, and there's all kinds of resources like that. And then it's called a network because we have we have a membership and we gather as as membership. So we have we have regular gatherings with our members online. Everything is online right now, um, where we get together and talk about case studies or we we do sort of like a lunch and learn type situation where there's a little bit of training, but then there's a lot of discussion. And our members have really gained community with each other, knowing this is lonely work, this is hard work. A lot of the folks that are doing this are volunteers in their churches. Like they're they're volunteering to sit with women after they've experienced, you know, having to leave their their spouse or what, you know, like stuff that's so hard. And so being able to be there for each other, care for each other, and um, it's just been really, really lovely. So there's the networking component. And by the way, a lot of our networking meetings have been recorded. So if you become a member, you can go back and watch every one of those if you want to. Um, and then we do, we developed a certification program. So that original training that I did many years ago, um, we turned it into a certification. And if you're a licensed mental health professional, um, you can get CEs for that, which is awesome. We're certified with the um with the National Board of Certified Counselors, so you can get CE credit. Um, but our certification program is basically walking somebody through the trauma healing process, um, post-trauma. So it's not crisis care, it's, you know, it's post, it's it's healing process. And there's worksheets and there's handouts and there's a case study that you get to do and and be in a group with some other people. And um, gosh, I I need to ask, but I I want to say, I think in our certification over the past three years, we've trained over a thousand people in that certification program. So, and Tabby gets to be a part of that too as a leader, which is awesome. And so we love it. It's it's so fun. And it's just the re I think obviously there's a need, and that's why there's been so much traction. Um, people really want to learn and they want to think about, they want to think theologically about people's suffering. And then they want to have very practical, because that's the thing. I think sometimes we fall on one side or the other. We're so practical that we miss like the underpinning, underlying stuff, or we're so theological that it's like, wait, I learned something good, but I have no idea what to do with it. So we're trying to be really practical as well with people of like, here's how you can actually sit with somebody without creating a formula, which there is none. Correct. It's so it's really fun. We love it. We love it. Yeah.

How To Join And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_01 54:50

One of the things I love about it myself, obviously having been through the training, having, you know, helped with the training, is that you do get such a cool cross-section of people helpers in the church community. And so I've had groups where I had licensed therapists and pastors and, you know, lay helpers and biblical counselors. And it is such a delight because A, we're one body in Christ. We are all going to live in heaven together. So we all should get along. And that it's so encouraging to see so many people who want to understand trauma better because they know they're going to see it in their congregation and they want to love well. And I think that has been a criticism of the Big C church for a long time is that you don't understand trauma. You're doing things that are harmful. And so to see so many men and women come through this program and want to do it well, want to love well, want to be skilled, that to me is a joy and a delight. And to know that it's not denominational, like it's a bunch of different denominations, it's a bunch of different like positional locations within a church, whether you're the pastor or a counselor or outside of the church as a counselor or whatever it is, that everybody comes together and says, How can we love well? How can we help people heal? And that is one of my favorite things. So if you're listening and you're a people helper, we will have the Christian trauma healing network information in the show notes. Go check it out. Like, do one of their webinars if you want to, you know, just you know, get a taste of it and then join, like honestly, because it really is a good organization. I've been a member, I think, since the beginning, actually. And you know, it has been so wonderful. I've met amazing people. Some of us have gotten to meet in person at different conferences, and that's been super fun. So I just really encourage folks, take a look at these resources. If you are a people helper, I mean, this is coach, biblical counselor, licensed counselor, pastor, elder, deacon, lay counselor within the church, Stevens minister, whatever it is that you do, this can really be helpful and such an encouragement. So 10 out of 10, that is my endorsement of it. That was a great commercial. Appreciate that, Tabby. Absolutely. Well, Beth, it is always a delight. And honestly, we could probably talk about all kinds of things for like the next four hours, and this would be a very long podcast, but we unfortunately have to end. I want to thank you so much for being on Hey Tabby with us and for giving us your wisdom in a million different places, but also on this podcast. It is so good to see your face, and I hope that you'll join us again sometime. I'd be happy to. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening in. Please make sure you go like, subscribe. Please rate this on your favorite podcast platform. It does help people find it. And we will look forward to seeing you here again next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and you can grab it there. Look forward to seeing you next time.