Nice Girls End Up in Trunks: The Difference Between Niceness and Kindness

Have you been so conditioned to be sweet, small, and unproblematic that you've lost your voice, or worse, put yourself in danger? In this episode, we're talking about one of the most important distinctions I know: niceness is not the same as kindness.

Niceness is others-regulated. It needs approval to exist, it collapses under pressure, and it can be a fawn response — your nervous system trying to keep you safe by making you small. Kindness, on the other hand, is self-sourced. It comes from genuine care, it tells the truth, and yes — it can absolutely say no.

I'll walk you through:

• Why the cultural and religious pressure on women to "be sweet" can actually be dangerous
• The difference between niceness and kindness (and when each has its place)
• How healthy boundaries are an act of kindness — not cruelty
• Why guilt after setting a boundary is normal, especially for survivors
• The DEAR MAN skill — a practical, step-by-step tool for speaking up clearly and kindly (check the show notes for the full breakdown!)

Whether you're healing from a coercively controlling relationship, navigating a hard conversation, or just tired of people-pleasing your way through life — this episode is for you.

📝 Show Notes & Resources: www.tabithawestbrook.com/heytabi

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Transcript

Nice Girls End Up in Trunks: The Difference Between Niceness and Kindness

[00:00:00] Welcome to Hey Tabi, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not. Take two verses and call me in the morning.

I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and wellbeing. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope.

Now let's get going.

Tabitha Westbrook: Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabi. And I am gonna start us off with a story this week. So this would be a few years ago now. I was going to get some medical care and looking into some things, to see if we could help with just some of the swelling that I sometimes have in my legs for no apparent reason.

And we went to this provider who had [00:01:00] been apparently a supermodel at one point, and I was in there trying to explain my medical history to her, and she kept just talking down to me. She was really pretty ugly, and I just was super sweet. Didn't say, Hey, you don't need to talk to me that way.

I just kept going with it and didn't really say much, and when I left there I felt awful, not because of how she had treated me, although that is part of it for sure. But the real reason I felt awful was because I didn't speak up. I prioritized being nice over being truthful in that moment. So I just kept Southern sweet going on instead of saying, Hey, it's not okay to talk to me that way.

I'm gonna leave if you keep it up. Which I was well within my rights to do. My question for you is, what are we so afraid of will happen if we just don't. If we speak up and what we [00:02:00] speak is the truth. Now look, to be fair, I'm going to be laying out the difference here between niceness and kindness and there is a time and place to just be nice, right?

Sometimes you just gotta get outta situations. Sometimes you need to do something a little bit different, and being nice is not a bad thing. There are just times it is misplaced. And what I wanna talk about is that. So niceness can be a trap if we're not careful. We are taught that niceness is to smile, to accommodate, not make it awkward, be easy. For a lot of women when we grew up, we were told to be unproblematic, right? I've had a few things said to me about my character because I didn't back down from something. And again, i'm saying these in these spaces of where it's appropriate and where it's not appropriate, but girls are taught to be sweet in particular.

Now guys definitely get into some of this as well, but by and far I [00:03:00] do see this being more of an issue with ladies. So I just wanna say that to be begin with. Niceness can also be a fawn response. I am trying to keep you from doing some sort of harm to me, or I have been so taught that I'm supposed to acquiesce or bow to something that I automatically almost do it. And part of it also is how we have our nervous system trying to keep us safe. Sometimes our nervous system tells us, make yourself small, keep yourself safe. It's gonna be totally fine. And then again, the cultural and gender habituation or the things that we get used to that tell us, Hey, you're gonna be rewarded if you are sweet.

Right. And I have heard pastors even say, you know, ladies, you need to be super sweet. You need to make sure that you are sweet and nice and all of those things. Don't be a problem. Don't make waves. And that is a very powerful message that some people get.

I [00:04:00] was doing supervision with one of my supervisees at one point, and we were talking about a particular case and how to help one of her clients find their voice. And she looked at me and she said, this is what I tell my daughters, nice girls end up in trunks. And I said oh girl, I'm gonna say that so often because it is so true, right?

If some perpetrator person comes up to you and says, Hey, I need you to help me get this, you know, thing, and you're like, oh no, I don't really want to, I mean, like, I, you know, I really shouldn't come over there or whatever, and they can grab you and shove you in a trunk, right? Because you let that interaction go a little bit too long.

And so her point was that overt niceness for the sake of niceness, and because we've been habituated to it, isn't helpful and can actually put you in a dangerous situation. And I love that so much because niceness and kindness are not the same thing. So what is the difference? Well, niceness is others regulated, and it needs approval to exist in some ways.

Now [00:05:00] again, this isn't in every situation, right? So I just wanna kind of help you create that nuance here. That niceness, though, is more of a response to someone else and to trying to placate them or make them feel better in some way. And again, there is a place for that. It's just not all the time.

Kindness though, is self sourced. It comes out of genuine care. There's not really a fear of a consequence. And when we look at kindness, kindness is very truthful. It is a truth telling adventure. Essentially. So if I am being kind to you, I might tell you something hard, not because I don't love you or I don't care about you, but precisely because I do.

I think about Jesus in John two. Again, one of my favorite scriptures where he's flipping tables. And in that moment he is as much kindness and love as he is justice. He's giving folks an opportunity to see something different, and that actually was really kind because what they were doing was really wicked.

Niceness also really [00:06:00] collapses under pressure. And so when you are just nice for the sake of nice, then it really can't hold up. And again, like I said, it can put you into some dangerous situations Sometimes the very kindest thing we can do is to say no to someone. That's actually wisdom. Kind people can in fact say no.

You can be disappointed. You can tell the truth. You can still be loving in all of those places. I see this distinction playing out in my work a lot when someone won't speak up because they don't want to be mean. And niceness is often seen as the opposite of meanness, right? And again, I'm not saying to go out and just wantonly be rude to people.

Please don't do that. There is plenty of that in this world. But you really wanna check in with yourself and figure out why you're doing what you're doing. I don't wanna confront this pastor because it wouldn't be nice. When really what might be the most kind of thing to do [00:07:00] is to graciously reach out and say, I'm really confused.

So let's talk about boundaries just for a second. Oftentimes we think of boundaries as punishments or ultimatums, and that's not what they are. It's really what am I okay with and what am I not okay with, and what am I gonna allow in my life? Ultimately, it really helps people understand how to be in a relationship with us, and it's not so someone else will do something, right?

If I say, if you talk to me that way, I'm gonna leave the situation right. That person can still talk to you however they want. I'm just not gonna stick around for it. And that is the very difference, right? You can't talk to me that way, you know? But I'm gonna stand right here and keep telling you, you shouldn't talk to me That way it's not a boundary and, and you're trying to get them to do something different.

A boundary says, I'm just checking out if you keep doing that. And often talk about boundaries as being walls versus fences. Now there are times that a wall boundary, something that is immovable, impermeable, is really appropriate. It really depends on the [00:08:00] situation. And there are times when it's a fence and you wanna open and close that gate, or move the fence line.

You know, for different reasons. And I think that's part of, as you recover from a traumatic experience, something that you really want to look at, which kind of boundary do you need? And, and we can talk about that in another episode, but really understanding kindness versus niceness helps you figure out what your boundaries are.

Right? If I'm, again being say, nice for the sake of niceness. I might let you in my yard when you really shouldn't be there because I feel bad. It's guilt ridden, right? It's guilt underpinning, if you will. Like, well, I don't really want you in my yard, and it's really upsetting you that I'm saying you can't come in my yard, so I'm gonna let you in my yard.

That's not a boundary, and that's where niceness can really get us hurt and we really wanna understand that. So guilt after boundary setting, like if we say no to something, is pretty common, honestly, especially when you are first starting [00:09:00] out because it feels mean, and this is something with survivors I have seen over and over and over again.

I can't say that because it would be mean. I can't set this boundary because it will be mean. It will hurt their feelings. It's not nice and really helping folks understand that it's not mean to set healthy boundaries. To say, you cannot treat me in this way. Or to say, if you want to go into a rage, I'm going to leave.

I'm gonna take the kids, I'm gonna put them in the car and I'm gonna go somewhere else because this isn't safe for us. All of those things are actually accountable. Well, I can't tell the pastor what's really going on. It wouldn't be nice, and I can't really call the police on my abuser who has physically assaulted me because it wouldn't be nice.

It might hurt their feelings, it might harm their career. With no regard to yourself, and also knowing that setting a healthy [00:10:00] boundary with someone who is coercively controlling or abusive is actually kind. It gives them, much like Jesus in John two when he's flipping the tables, the incentive to look at this and go, huh, that's weird.

Maybe I should do something different with my life. Perhaps being coercively controlling and entitled is not in my best interest and won't actually get me what I want. And that actually is really kind. I have spoken to some folks who have ended up incarcerated for various things over the years, and most who are in a healthy place will say, I'm so glad that happened.

It was the best thing that ever happened to me. And you might be saying they're going, how can going to jail be the best thing that ever happened? Wouldn't it have been nicer if the DA had given grace or whatever? How can that be a good thing? And it's because it really let that person know this behavior wasn't okay.

This thing that you did was illegal, and it demanded [00:11:00] accountability. It demanded a consequence. And while they were in jail, they did meet Jesus. Now look, we know that many people who go to jail or to prison often meet Jesus. That would be with air quote. They don't know him at all and they get out and live just like they did before.

However, for some folks, they sit there and go, how did I end up here? How did I end up here? And so the most kind thing that could have happened to them was to have to experience a consequence because it gave them the opportunity to self-reflect in ways that were really important. And that is tough, right?

We don't want people to feel that. So sometimes we will be nice. I don't wanna tell you the thing that I need to tell you because I don't wanna hurt your feelings. It feels. Not nice. It feels mean. When in reality the conversation you need to have is, Hey, this really hurt my feelings, or This doesn't work for me, or I need to do something different.

And again, I am not saying not to let your [00:12:00] words be seasoned with grace. There are ways to approach things when you need to speak a hard truth that are kind and loving and gracious. You don't have to just go in with guns blazing, and I know that this can be a little bit of a hard shift for people at times because maybe you are used to people saying, well, I just had to speak the truth.

And I always remind folks when they are not speaking the truth lovingly what Paul says, that if I don't have love and I can say all of the truth in the world and I am just noise. So there is a way to express things in kindness that is still gracious, but we don't have to minimize our own feelings and experiences, and for a lot of women in particular, this is a shift.

This is looking at it and going, how do I do this a little bit differently? How do I not just default to nice and sweet and [00:13:00] quiet when that's what I've known? And so those are places where you wanna just be aware of what's happening and really start checking in with yourself and interactions. This might be something that you try with friends, somebody that is trustworthy, that is, you know, a person that you can say, I am learning to exit niceness that's not helpful, and move into kindness. And so I may say no to something. I might confront something or say something about something and I'm learning will you, are you willing to let me learn with you? And a lot of times folks will say yes. And also you can role play. This is one of my funnest things that I do in therapy with people and in coaching spaces is role play with them.

If this happens, what do you do? Sometimes we call it in the therapy room coping ahead. So this is preparing you for a situation that you might walk into. So for example, in a destructive relationship where you now have to co-parent because you [00:14:00] are separated or divorced, sometimes there's a push to be nice and you feel bad if you make the other person feel bad or you think you did, or whatever.

So let's say that you were asked for something that is unreasonable and that you really can't say yes to, and you just say, and you don't wanna say yes to by the way. You can also just not want to do something, do it. That's a whole other podcast to actually like, I don't know. Just say no 'cause you want to, 'cause you don't have to.

'cause it's reasonable. But when we do that, we might have defaulted to a fawning response or being nice. Now again, safety first please here. But if you are safely able to do this, you can say no, I'm not gonna do that. Thanks for asking. And just walk away. And for a lot of people who are habituated to being nice, that's gonna feel really wild and a little bit scary at first.

But you can totally do that and it's gonna take some practice and you might feel bad and you might stumble over it a few times, and all of that is completely fine, [00:15:00] completely fine. Niceness gets us in trouble when we are minimizing ourselves in this space. And look, yes, there is a time and a place for self-sacrifice.

There is a time and a place for saying, I need to give up my rights, desires, whatever, in this moment because it's for the good of someone else. Like there are places for that. I think the problem is when we are too nice and nice, not in the right ways, right? Like in that minimizing myself is that we don't actually make a choice.

We don't really look into that space and say, Hey, that wasn't good for me. Right? We just kind of take it on the chin and keep moving, and that's really not what we're supposed to do. That's not real relationship. And again, how we approach people, how we look at it in love, sometimes we have to vet these things out.

So I'm not saying anything like just Go and wantonly do some things, but we do wanna look at. Where am I in this? What do I need in this? What is healthy [00:16:00] and good, and make some different decisions. This is where interpersonal effectiveness is really helpful. So this is basically how to work and play well with others.

And we aren't taught this unfortunately in school and when we have been in coercively controlling spaces. It is really, really hard to have a different perspective on this and to do it differently and to say, this is something I need, or something I'm not Okay with. There is a skill that I absolutely love that I teach people.

It is one of my favorite conversation starters when I have to confront something, address something, say no to something, and it's called the Dear Man Skill. And this is an old school dialectical behavioral therapy skill that I really like. But what I like about it is it helps me get my thoughts together.

So first I have to check in with myself and go. Man, maybe this doesn't feel really good. I wanna just be nice again and not say the thing, do the thing, say no to the thing. But I know that [00:17:00] I've looked at it and this is an appropriate time for me to use my voice. Okay, so we're there, D stands for describe, so we are going to describe what it is that we need, and all of this will be in the show notes so that you can reference it back.

So if you're driving, don't freak out and try to take notes like. Please be safe. I want you to be safe. So D is describe and you wanna do this in as few words as possible. I remember years ago when I worked in a different career, before I became a therapist, I had this one CEO at a company who that man spoke in bullet points and that's how I had to approach him.

I was the head of my department and often had to interact with him. So I learned very quickly. I needed an economy of words with this individual. I needed to distill down whatever it was that I was asking into. No more than three bullet points. I don't know if you've listened to this podcast, but I definitely can talk. So that took a little bit [00:18:00] of work on my part and I sometimes wanted to overexplain also, how many trauma survivors want to overexplain all the things, of course we do, right? So I had to learn to distill it down to no more than three bullet points so that I was making a very clear ask.

Now, it doesn't mean that I didn't put pleasantries into the conversation or any of that. Hey, how are you? How's it going? How's your day? Is totally fine. But when I got to the ask, I had to be able to describe it and I had to be able to say, here's a situation I have before I asked. And so three bullet points max, to describe, you know, when you didn't come home when you said you would, there it is.

That's the description. Like that's one sentence. Oh my gosh. You know, or when you said this to me. There it is. One sentence. So how succinctly can you describe a situation? Right, so if I were going to [00:19:00] talk to someone about a roof leak, I would say the roof has been leaking for three years. I have found water in our space consistently every time it rains.

This is two bullet points now, right? So there is our describe. The roof is leaking. It has been leaking for this long, and I find it dripping into my space. Okay. Now if I were overexplaining something or trying to be nice, I might be mousy about it or what have you, but I wouldn't be clear, right? I might be like, well, you know, I was looking up at the roof and I noticed there were some shingles misplaced and not really looking good, and then like it would rain, and then I went in and I found water, and then it happened again.

Right? I've already lost the plot. You've already lost me. I don't even know if you're still listening to this podcast. You might not be listening to this podcast already. I hope you're still listening. But if I [00:20:00] say the roof is leaking, it's been doing that for three years, I continually find water in my space.

It is factual. It is very straightforward, and that is something that you can really get your head around, right? And I don't sound mean, I don't sound hateful, I don't sound any of those things. I'm just saying, here's what's going on. Right. And of course we can get into tone and body presentation and all the body language with it, but right now we're just trying to get the method.

So work with me here. All right. And then E is our emotions. What did you feel? And again, try to keep it as succinct as possible. This is not every emotion that you have ever felt ever about the situation. There's a time and place for that. This is not it, right? This is a conversation starter. This is getting us going in a good way.

And John Gottman has found that in relationship conversation, how you started is how you're gonna end it. So the better you start it with someone, the better likelihood it has to end well. Now look, when you're dealing with an unreasonable person, they're unreasonable. They're not going to do [00:21:00] reasonable things.

So let me just remind you of that. And what you can also do is talk to more reasonable people, right? That's what we're doing is building healthy relationship here. So our E is our emotions. When I found the roof leaking, right, so I got through that. We know it's been leaking for three years, and I keep finding water.

I felt really frustrated and really angry about it. Right. Or I felt sad because it ruined something. Whatever it is you feel. But I feel really frustrated about this. Now we get to the A, what are we going to ask? I need you to, or I would like you to, or would you please? Right. And this isn't like, it'd be great if you.

Right. This is where we're gonna make a clear ask. If we don't ask somebody clearly for something or we don't say we're not okay with something, clearly people don't know and they're not just gonna magically get it. This is where clarity of language is really, really, really helpful. So we can say, I really need the roof fixed.

'cause [00:22:00] it do, right? If it's leaking, it's been leaking for three years and there's water inside, like that's not good, right? And so we go, okay, I really need the roof fixed as quickly as possible. Before it rains again in like three weeks, right? So we're making a really clear ask there, like the roof has been leaking for three years.

I continually find water in this space. I'm really frustrated about it, and I really need it to be fixed no later than the end of the month. Because we're heading into rainy season. Right? So there it is. There is our description, our emotions, and our ask. Now the R is the reward. So win-win. How does this benefit both parties?

So if I'm talking to a building owner about the roof leak, you know, it would really, it would help keep the building nice, right? They don't wanna lose their asset. Buildings are expensive. And it would help, and it would help us do our jobs better, right? So let's say it's for my company. And so obviously we work in that space and running dripping water into the [00:23:00] walls is not ideal, right?

We want that different. So, you know, I need you to fix this no later than the end of the month. This would really help you out by preserving the asset of the building and making sure that it stays good. It would help me out because then we wouldn't have things ruined by the water. There it is. Right. It's a very clear ask.

It's not being unkind. And then from that place, I get the ability to negotiate. So in this skill called Dear man, now we have MAN, we've gotten through DEAR, and now we're gonna go through MAN. So mindfully is the first, is that M, right? So I'm going to check in with myself. If I feel a lot of emotions, I'm gonna regulate as much as possible before I start this conversation.

I am going to be assertive. Now, the a word for women can feel really, really hard, and I'll tell you this in certain situations, instead of being called assertive, we will be called aggressive. I had a pastor at one [00:24:00] point where I was working an abuse case and I was very much immovable. I was, I was very sure in my position, I was definitely regulated.

But I was not gonna move in my position because I was, I felt very strongly about it, and I was very assertive about that. I was not ugly. I was not disrespectful in any way. I was kind, being very truthful and saying what I needed and what I thought was best for this particular victim that I had talked to, and I was giving and asked for them, and I was called aggressive.

I was told you came across aggressive. Now, if I had been a man, I would've been called assertive. For sure. And so we do have to reckon with that. Can you be called aggressive even when you're assertive? Right. And we know the difference. I've done a podcast on it. What's the difference between, you know, being aggressive and being assertive?

We can talk about that more, but. We are gonna be assertive. We are going to say, this is how I feel, and that's where this clarity and clearness is really helpful. And then being willing to negotiate. So if the roofer says [00:25:00] to me I cannot get there by the end of the month because that's tomorrow, then you know, am I willing to negotiate a timeline?

Totally get that. Didn't realize we were this close to the end of the month. How about next week? How about within two weeks, right? It's supposed to rain again in a couple weeks. I'd really like to get us out of this situation so that we're not here again. Right? Great. Now there are gonna be some things that are non-negotiable, right?

If you're saying, I am not allowing you to do this anymore, this behavior, this thing, this situation needs to stop, whatever it is, then you're not gonna negotiate. At all. So negotiation is really gonna be highly dependent upon the situation that you are in. Hopefully that's a little bit helpful and we could run through a million scenarios where we, we could talk about that.

I will say in coercively controlling behavior, when you are saying it is not okay to treat me this way. And you're saying, um, this is not in our best interest. There's no negotiation for, well, let me treat you just kind of bad that [00:26:00] that doesn't work, right? So we're gonna use some wisdom in this. And remember, the difference between knowledge and wisdom is knowing that a tomato is a fruit and wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad, right?

So it's what we do with the knowledge that we have. So that is a conversation starter. And sometimes when people learn, dear man, they think this is a sum total of the conversation and that's over and it really isn't. It's how I'm gonna get started. So they have the best chance of a positive outcome.

And again, that's kind because I am going to be immovable at times on certain things when I am being assertive, especially if I am confronting an injustice or something like that. Then i'm not gonna be able to negotiate much truthfully, and I might be called unkind or aggressive or whatever, and really, I'm still being very kind again.

Now, this does not mean treating people with disrespect. We do not do that. We treat people with respect. That is true kindness. You know, I may have [00:27:00] a higher level of intensity, and we talked about intensity in a previous podcast. I may have a higher level of intensity when I need to, and that is not a problem right now in that higher level of intensity.

I'm not gonna be rude. I'm just gonna be direct, right? And so it is a bit of a skill. Like I said, these are skills that we don't really learn in high school very often. We may learn them hopefully in life, and we may need to relearn them if we were in a coercively controlling or abusive situation.

Particularly if we were in an institutional abusive situation where maybe there's spiritual abuse, we may have to disentangle some scriptures and work on what we know to be true. So when you walk through the world, you wanna learn how to walk in both warmth and real kindness, but also with healthy limits.

You know, relationships are really able to deepen when you stop performing or [00:28:00] minimizing yourself or being mousy. When you learn the difference between being nice and being kind. And also, may I invite you to self-kindness or self-compassion. We are sometimes really rude to ourselves. I am always grateful that like the things that go through my own head about me are not broadcast like on a computer screen or something, or on a television, because that would be patently terrifying.

And I would be really sad for people to see that. Not because they're ugly to anyone else. I'm ugly to me sometimes. And that's just something that we have to really learn to let go of. Right? And that doesn't mean that we are not appropriately looking at things that can change or grow or whatever, right?

We're always going to be able to work on something. We're human, but that does mean I don't have to be a villain to myself. I can be kind to myself just like I'm encouraging kindness to other people. It means I tell myself the truth, but I [00:29:00] also have enormous compassion.

And again, this is an ongoing practice. If you have been habituated to niceness and just being sweet and small, then you are going to have to learn how to do this, and it's gonna feel pretty uncomfortable at first, if I'm being honest. It is an area to grow into, so be very, very kind to yourself as we do this right?

It's a learning process.

I just want to remind you that the trunk is not your destiny, right? You don't want to be the nice girl that ends up in the trunk because you didn't assert a healthy boundary when you needed to. Again, I'll have the rhythm and the instructions for dear man in the show notes, and I am so grateful that you were with me this week on Hey, Tabi, don't forget to go and like and subscribe and follow us on all of the appropriate channels, and if you would on your favorite podcast platform, please give us a rating and a review. It really, really helps people find [00:30:00] us, and that's a really important thing. Thank you again for being here, and we will see you again next week. 

Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabi. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you wanna check out the show notes, head on over to tabitha westbrook.com/hey Tabi, that's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.