Hey Tabi!

When the Church Gets It Right: How Abuse Survivors Actually Heal

• Tabitha • Season 2 • Episode 29

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What does it actually look like when the Church gets it right for survivors of abuse?

In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist and coercive control expert Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Dawn Jones, founder of Restored to Thrive, a church-based ministry supporting women healing from domestic abuse/coercive control, and relational trauma.

So often, abuse survivors experience silence, minimization, or spiritual bypassing in church spaces. But this conversation offers something different: a real-life example of a church that chose survivors over systems—and the healing that followed.

Together, Tabitha and Dawn talk openly about:

  • How coercive control and emotional abuse show up in Christian marriages
  • Why traditional marriage counseling can be dangerous in abusive relationships
  • What abuse survivors actually need from pastors and church leaders
  • How safe, trauma-informed church communities foster real healing
  • The life-saving impact of being believed, supported, and protected

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At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.

Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

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📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

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👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know...

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. And I am super excited to be here with somebody who is a good friend of mine and who is an amazing person, and I want to tell you about her. Her name is Dawn Jones, and she is a lover of Jesus. She's the mother of four amazing kiddos and one awesome daughter-in-law. She's a grandmother to two sweet grandsons, which is super cool. I hear grandparenting is like even better, but we'll talk about that in a minute. She has a bachelor's and a master's in education from Baylor University. She taught in the public school system for several years and then moved into the private sector and then eventually left all of that to be a full-time mom. She currently lives in Marble Falls, Texas, where she leads a ministry called Restored to Thrive at First Baptist Church of Marble Falls. Restored to Thrive is a ministry for women healing from relational trauma, including coercive control, and abuse. And I am so excited. Welcome to the podcast, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. I'm excited to be here and just thank you for having me. I'm I'm honored.

SPEAKER_01:

Can't wait to see you. I am super stoked. This has been a long time coming. They're going to talk about some cool stuff that's happening like in your ministry and church in a second. But first, I have to ask, as someone who has gotten to grandmother age, because I mean, like, really honestly, like we can be grandmother age at a variety of ages. So I feel like now that I have an adult child of my own, that I am grandmother age, what is it like to be a grandma?

SPEAKER_00:

It is amazing. So all the things that you hear people say, it's even better. And so all of us grandmas get together and we're like, do you think it's even better? And they're like, Yes. So we get all the fun stuff, like less diapers. We get to sleep like full night. So it's amazing. I highly recommend it. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

And you get to like love on these little humans. Yes, yes. That's so cool. And one day they'll become big humans. Yes. Which is fantastic. I love that so much. I think that's one of the fun things about like getting your children to adulthood is then they get married and have their own babies and stuff. And then you get to play with their babies and give them ice cream for breakfast and you know the things that grandparents do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. All the things, all the fun things for sure. Yes. I highly recommend it. You'll love it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's amazing. My son is 21, so we're probably a little ways away from it at the moment, but I am looking forward to it if it ever happens. When I said, Hey, Don, you want to come on the podcast? You had talked about some really cool stuff at your church that had happened. And a lot of times, particularly on this podcast, we talk about where the church has maybe had some missteps or haven't done what we would hope that they would do in terms of caring well for those who've been through relational trauma like domestic abuse and coercive control. And your church is doing it well. And so I want to really highlight that, but even more than that, I want to highlight like what the fruit of the ministry is. So what happens for the victims who are now survivors, who are now overcomers when they have a church that is supportive. So why don't you tell us about the ministry itself and how it came to be?

SPEAKER_00:

So, like most people who do this work, my personal story dev tells with how the ministry started. So I'm very briefly going to give you some background. Met a guy in my late 20s, fell in love with them, saw red flags, thought I was gonna love those red flags away. You know how that went. Went on the honeymoon and knew I was in trouble, like literally almost flew home and figured was like, is there a way to call this off? But I stayed for 23 more years. And so through that time, there were a lot of deception, there were a lot of destructive cycles, but we just kept on plugging along and you get used to it. Fast forward to 2020, and things just got unbearable. And so he went to go get some help, and then his going to counseling, you'll appreciate this, turned into, oh, he doesn't need to be in counseling, y'all need to be in marriage counseling. So, as a good Christian wife, I did that. And I am a huge proponent of counseling, had been in counseling many times, and this was very different. And actually, it was probably one of the most traumatic things that I've been through. And so I said actually agreeing to go into marriage counseling was the, see if I say this in the right order, was the best, worst thing I did. It was the worst thing because it was traumatic, but it was the best thing because it started me on my healing journey, even though those first steps felt like steps of rebellion, but I was just beside myself and I I couldn't take it anymore. So I said, I'm not gonna do marriage counseling anymore. I will find my own counselor and do my own work. And so we had separate counselors, we had a team, our pastor was involved, so he got to see firsthand some of what we were going through. And so I started my journey hoping that you know he would come alongside. That didn't happen. He took different avenues, and about a year and a half later, our marriage did end. But in that time of growth with my own counselor, I started looking. I think because I felt like I was going crazy, I started just searching for anything I could. And I found Leslie Vernick in her book, The Emotionally Destructed Marriage. And that was the first time that I read something, and I was like, maybe I'm not just rebellious, maybe I'm not crazy. This is a thing. And some people they find that and they can only take a little bit at a time, but I wasn't like I think again because I was trying to convince my like, oh, here's evidence that I'm not crazy. So I just consumed everything that that I could find. I took her walking in for strength, and then I joined Conquer. But Conquer, I think it's still like that now, I'm not sure, but you could only join certain times of year. And so I waited to join Conquer. There was like a two-week period where women could join, and you didn't just go in the major group, I mean in the big group, you went in like a little orientation group. So you could see exactly how many people had joined. And I remember by the end of that two weeks, there were hundreds of women that had joined in that two weeks. So I really sat and I my first thought was, oh my gosh, I'm not alone. This is a thing. And then as I processed more, I thought, what are so many of God's daughters doing here? This is not okay. And then as I continued on, like got into conquer and talked to other women, what I would hear over and over again was this story. I can't stay married anymore. It's unbearable. I can't get a divorce. So every night I pray for God to take my life. Oh, and I was like, no, church, all of us, and that is what the daughters of God, our sisters, are praying. Absolutely something's wrong. So I think that's what kind of lit a fire in me. But I was still on my own journey and trying to learn and trying to heal. But I remember I went to our executive pastor and I said, Hey, can I meet with you? And I said, I don't know what God's doing in my life right now, but I feel like he is eventually leading me to a ministry. I know I'm in the messy middle right now. I have no idea what that's gonna look like. But at some point, if I continue working in God opens doors, is the church even open to having some type of ministry like this? And he said, Yes, let's keep talking. So fast forward, I joined a quip. I did some training with Sarah McDouval, Psalm 82 initiative, and got a little bit of training under my belt. Plus, I live in a small town. We were very involved in the church, so I started having women coming out of the woodwork. Hey, let me tell you what's going on. Hey, can you help me? And so very informally, this is during the time Lisa Turkhurst was kind of walking out her story publicly. So there was a lot of information out that was kind of helpful for us also. So we just met individually and we would have a fellowship, maybe listen to a video, and they kept saying we have to have a group, and I kept on saying, I'm not ready. And then finally, God was like, Look, I'm bringing people, I will make you ready. I set up a meeting with our senior pastor, executive pastor again, saying, Okay, here's what I've done. And boy, I had all the books, I had all these things ready. So I went into a meeting with church leadership, everybody in there. I started on my spiel. I was maybe two minutes into it, and my pastor stopped me and he said, Don, I want to stop you. We are gonna listen and we will be here as long as you want. We we want to hear what you have to say, but I want to say something right now. Yes, yes, we want your ministry here. And so I kind of laughed, went on, did my thing. And it was funny, like it was like it may have been a year later. He said, Do you know why I stopped you? And I said, No, not really. And he said, Because it was very obvious, you are not asking permission to do that ministry. You were saying, I am doing this ministry. Are you going to be part of it? And that's just the fire and the passion that God has given me for it. So in January of 2023, our first group met. We went through good boundaries and goodbyes together because that was kind of nice and safe for me to get my feet wet. And so we're starting in year four. And I kind of went back. This has been nice to reflect back and look on some things. So, and we can talk about that later. There's a lot of different things I do in this ministry, but sitting and some is short term, some is long term. I've probably worked with about 40 women at this point, but I have a great church, an amazing pastor leadership that's so supportive.

SPEAKER_01:

That is amazing. So I want to touch on a few of the things that you said in there. First of all, Leslie Vernick's book has been such a helpful tool for so many people to go, I am not crazy. And I think it's interesting. The first thing that stood out to me that you said was I took my first steps and they felt like rebellion when you were saying, I'm not doing this marriage counseling anymore, which our listeners know that marriage counseling is not appropriate when there's a destructive relationship, when there's abuse and coercive control present. And it feels though to somebody in the midst of it who wants to be a godly person, like they are rebelling to say no.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I really I was at the point of just being beside myself that, and this is bad. I really thought, and I'm a people pleaser. Well, I'm a recovering people pleaser, let me say that. And so I was like, at this point, I don't care what other people say about me. And if I'm really honest, it was so bad that I was like, I don't know, gods, you can strike me, but I I I can't take it. That was the level of just anguish.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I think it's important for people to hear that. That you know, the other thing that you had said was there are people coming and saying, I don't feel like I'm allowed to get a divorce, so God just kill me, take me out. Maybe I'll take myself out. And that is really important, I think, for church leaders to understand is this isn't a light. Well, I'm not happy. You know, it's not, I'm just not feeling the vibe, if you will. It's I would rather be dead than keep doing this. And I guess I'm gonna have to let God take me out. And that is heartbreaking. And you said, why are God's daughters saying this? And I think that's another important thing. So for folks, if you haven't listened to the episode with Leslie where we talk about the emotionally destructive marriage, I would just commend you to go back and listen to that one because it's really helpful in understanding that book and how it came to be. But it really has been one that for more than a decade now, women have picked up and found their sanity and found God in that, you know, is something that I'll say. And for you, it was that way. You found your sanity in it a little bit and God used it powerfully.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. It was a game changer for me. I was just like, oh my gosh, even like, okay, I'm not just being rebellious and not going into counseling with them. There's a reason I'm really not supposed to be doing it. So yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I would also commend to people that Core Strength and Conquer, they still exist and they are wonderful. And if you go to Leslie Vernick's website, which I will link in the show notes, then you can absolutely take advantage of those things. And and it is powerful when you feel like the most alone person on the planet, and this is true of so many survivors of abuse, is I felt like I was the only one until you realize you're not the only one. And so to see hundreds of women had to have been so powerful and healing in a way.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And even just having our support group, sometimes the women say, This is the only thing that's helped me keep my sanity this week. Because you do see that you're not alone. And I left this part out. This was a crazy thing. When we started just informally meeting, so it it started with a group, and then the next time would be, Can I bring a friend? And so these again, I live in a smaller community. So people would come in, what are you doing here? What are you doing here? Literally, one lady just told me, you know, this was years ago, and she said, I remember walking into one of those and seeing someone and thinking, Oh, she must be here to do a devotional, because they are like the perfect Christian family. And I was just like devastated to find out she was there because she was going through the same thing. So there was a lot of that also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think like that's one of the hard parts of it is it's like hard and healing at the same time, right? You mentioned Lisa Turkers, and that was one of the things that was disorienting for a lot of people who had followed her for years. Like, oh my goodness, what's happening? And in so many ways, it has helped set women free as well for her to publicly walk her journey because they've heard that like it wasn't perfect and there were things behind the scenes. And how many of us who are survivors have had that exact experience where it's like, it looks pretty on the outside, but inside the four walls of home is a seventh level of Hades. And that is just the reality. So I think it's horrifying and healing are probably the right words when you are in a group like that, going, Why are there so many of us? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the other thing is you speak a common language because honestly, women can come in the group and say things, and other people are like, Yes, I get it. Then if you went into women's Bible study and said that, there'd be a variety of responses to that. But if you haven't walked through it, you really can't get it on the same level. Even if you're trained in it, like you can get it to a certain level. But there's just a freedom of being able to walk in and not only know you're not alone, but say, like these people, they get it, they understand. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's where real support groups are so valuable, you know, whether they're in person, whether they're online, that it is the, oh, you have the same words I do. You know, and the number of times I have heard women say, are we married to the same guy because the tactics are so similar? And it's like, I mean, kind of, yeah, because Satan is fueling all of it, but it's really helpful. And yes, there can be wonderful people helpers who have gotten a lot of education, who are adept at helping people. But there is nothing like sitting in a group of survivors together who all are like, yeah, man, we get it. And they're in different spaces of their walk and recovery and all that sort of thing. So one of the reasons that I love the Call to Peace Ministries retreat every year so much. I am a survivor, our audience knows that about me. And to not only be with these wonderful women that I get to serve and love, but like again, we have a sisterhood in a lot of ways because of the experiences that we've had. And that is a very powerful and healing space. Now, obviously, there can be communities that aren't healthy. That's not the topic of this particular episode. So we'll come back to that sometime. But when you have a really healthy, growing and healing survivor community, it can be one of the most powerful things on the planet.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And can I share you about when our pastor actually came into our support group with permission, we talked through because I knew that could be really hard for some women, but we have amazing, amazing senior pastor. And so when someone comes into group, then they just sit and listen, and everybody gives, I call it the elevator speech for what happened to them. And then when it gets to the new person, if they want to share, then they you know can. And if not, they don't have to. So I told the pastor, I said, Well, we're gonna treat you. You're a new person in the group. And we went around, and by the time we got to him, he just started crying. And he said, Anything that I could say here would just be cheap. All I can say is I'm so sorry. And he just wept with everyone. And that was such a powerful moment. And even to this day, the women still talk about that. And I love this because, in preparation for this podcast, anybody that I might share anything about, even without a name, I got permission and said, Are you okay with me sharing? So I went to him and I said, If I have the opportunity, I want to share that story. Is that okay? And I told him, because that's still powerful. That's one of the most powerful moments. And in his humility, still, he said, I appreciate that. And he said, But those were the brave women to let not only a man come in there, but also a pastor who's a man. And so just know the things that happen in my ministry and in our church. That's the heart of leadership that brings that in. And that's so powerful. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that is something that I commend to pastors to do regularly. I talked about this fairly recently on this podcast. If you sit in those rooms, it will change you without question. And even in my own life as a survivor myself, sitting with other survivors and hearing their stories and hearing them in different communities and different spaces still changes me. And that if I'm having that weight bear on me, then how much more so for the pastoral team, for the elders, for the leaders to see that and just sit with the grief and the pain and the horror of it all. And it really will change you. And you can't walk away the same.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I think something is hard for pastors because sometimes like we can be frustrated or we can go in and be demanding. So my pastor and I, we have, I think it's a relationship of mutual respect. We both know, like, I know he may get some things wrong. He probably knows, I'm sure, that I will get some things wrong. So I've given him permission from the very beginning. Hey, if you hear that I've said something, even if you think I'm theologically wrong. Please let's talk about it because you know I'm learning, I'm not perfect. And then the same way, he did a big series on relationships. And so I knew some of the topics, which he did a whole sermon on abuse, which was wonderful. But I knew some of the other things. I was like, there's some things that are gonna land differently for women that are in abusive situations. So I said, Hey, can I sit down and just tell you how this may come across? And he said, Absolutely. And I said, But I didn't tell him how to preach a sermon. I didn't make demands. So we have that mutual respect for each other, which I think is important. And in our coming out of hurt or trauma, we can tend to be maybe more demanding or it can come across wrong. So I think that's important too, to give grace both ways. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And that can be hard, I think, sometimes for survivors, because especially if the church has been part of your hurt and not part of the solution, that it can, especially if you go into a new faith community where you're like coming in, guns, blazing armor on, you know, and all that stuff, because you're afraid, because you don't want to get hurt again. And that makes a lot of sense. But where you can, where you have a safe enough pastor and elder board and all of those things, depending on how your church is structured, to come in and say, can we talk? is really helpful, you know. And for the listeners, if you're like, I am not there, I am not sure I can walk into a church, I can't even pick up my Bible. That's okay. You don't have to be. And that's where, you know, like what the Lord has done in you is so helpful, Dawn. That is a place that He has given you. So at your church, do you have a Don, you know, that can walk with you in that? Because you have that relationship. You are in a place where you're in a healed enough space because we're never done healing, right? Like that's absolutely preaching. But you're in a healed enough space where you can get into those places and say, hey, I can enter in a little bit more gently. And so sometimes if you're at the beginning of your journey and you're like, I want a church where my pastor hears me, then maybe you go with a friend who's able to help you regulate a little bit or is a little more regulated, a little more healed to have these conversations with the pastor so that you're not coming in guns blazing and armored up and all of those things, right? So that there can be a lot better conversation. So your pastor says yes to you and says, yes, we're gonna start this ministry and walk me through now what's happened since.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's amazing. And so I do several things. So we have the support group, and the way this support group is structured is it's on Wednesday nights when there's programming for children, for youth. The youth are already fed. I feed the moms and littles. The littles come in early and eat and go to their class. So the goal is that moms get two hours a week, that it's just focusing on them. And, you know, there's times of fellowship, there's things that we learn, it changes each semester. But I also do one-on-one work. We also, I love this. I think you will love it too. We have a women in crisis fund. And so anybody that's working with me on any level, they can get free counseling from a list of approved counselors that are going to be helpful and not cause more issues for them and for their children. And so if they're doing group with me or one-on-one and working, I partner with counselors. That's amazing. And we see, boy, some amazing results from that. And so from that, uh, well, and let me say this too. So we have women that come in, like it was a couple of months ago. Somebody picks someone up off the streets and it was domestic violence related. A lot of times that's just connecting, like getting them stabilized, connecting them with resources, like where do they need to go? And so, and some are there for a bit, and maybe we plant a seed and they go on somewhere else, and then some are there long term. But some of the fruit that we're seeing come out of it is some of the women are now they're actually on church staff, or they're coming alongside and they're in a supportive position. Some are out just in the regular work world, just doing their thing, and some are working with ministries that are outside of the church. In fact, so for my group and the women that I work with, it's actually only a small percentage from my church, also, which is interesting, but I love it because then they come in, they have the vocabulary for what's going on, and then they go talk to their pastors and share that other places. And so what I see overall, and this is the discussion that we have, is that women say, Man, I was on fire. This is before they met their husbands. I was on fire for Jesus, and I had all these things that I was doing. Maybe they were in choir, maybe they were, maybe it was a ministry, all different things. And then they got married, and then it happened slowly, right? We don't realize then the shift goes from being like God and Jesus centered to husband-centered and keeping him happy, and that starts to take all your energy and you give those things up, but you're struggling because you're trying to be a good wife too, right? We're supposed to keep our husbands happy. And so then part of that being restored is whenever they're on their healing journey, and that can look different ways. It can be, as Wesley Vernon says, that you're staying well, you're leaving well, or you're separating well. The focus is that you're well, but then when you're well, that you start moving that focus back to being God-centered and restoring your identity in Christ so that you can thrive. You go from surviving to thriving. So it can be something as little as oh my gosh, I had to give up singing in the choir. I'll never forget one of the ladies. She was so excited to be back in choir. And one Sunday morning, I promise you, like she was radiating. I was like, there was like light coming from her. It was amazing. And like I said, summer full-time ministries, one of the most exciting is one of the ladies came in. This was a couple of years ago, and I told you we feed the people. And she's like, I'm a professional chef. And so I said, if you want to, and that helps you, because you know, a lot of times there's a financial struggle, all these things, right? To try to gain stability. And I said, if you want to feed us, then I would rather pay you than Chick-fil-A or Schlotskis. I wasn't doing the cooking. And so she said, Great. And so she cooks, she still cooks for us to this day. And then she slowly built her business and she just came on staff and she's head of the Mission Center Cafe. We have a mission center which is outreach-based, and it just launched its in its baby stages. But oh my goodness. The amazing thing is that is going to be such an amazing ministry for our church, but also our community. I mean, she showed me like her mission statement. And again, that's in the mission center to bring in people from all over our community. So I think that's something we don't always focus on. We focus on how the church can help these women, but then when we help and we walk with them on that journey, then it comes back a thousandfold in the things that they give back to our church and to our larger community. So it's been really exciting to see that.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that is such an amazing thing. And I want to highlight another couple of things that I'm hearing. One is that there are really practical things that take place. So sometimes we hear about ministries and there's like the theological things, like, yeah, we're gonna walk with you, we'll love you, we'll pray for you. But you're feeding people, right? And you're giving child care space where the kids are being met at their level, and so the kids can go to youth and the littles can go to another location and be cared for. And you're feeding them, which when there is financial control and financial insecurity, sometimes that is one of the biggest gifts. Because how can you think if it's like, well, what am I gonna do with my kids? And what am I gonna do for dinner? And all of that is taken care of, and that is so incredibly loving and practical at the same time. Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I'm like, hey, even if you just come for a free meal, show up. But free meal and fellowship. And sometimes we do just have tomorrow night, we're just going and having dinner. We're just having a fellowship.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that is so amazing. And that's the stuff where when churches go, well, what can we do? I mean, that's one of them. Can you feed people? Do you have the capacity to do that? Do you have the capacity to make it a safe space where you know victims can come and bring their kids and get a meal and then have that space to learn to process and to start to heal and all of that? And I know there's some other practical things that the ministry does as well, including like clothing and you said counseling and things like that, where you can like, hey, I can walk them right to this place where you know you've told me this in the past. I can walk them right here and if they need clothes or if they need some of the more social services that the county offers, that you can help them get connected to that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Okay, so two things that made me think of. The easiest thing that any church can do, if you have a person who's willing to do it, you don't think about some of these things till you're walking through them. Because we were involved in our church. I'm a church girl. And so when we were going through our divorce, I did not demand that my husband leave the church because I thought I wanted him to be there and hopefully do healing. But I said, like, hey, you're gonna go to this class, I'm gonna go to this class. We're gonna sit like different places. So we kind of had some boundaries with that. Well, okay, so then I walk in there, and all of a sudden I'm the person that was there with a family, with a husband, that everybody's like, Oh, look at that cute family. And now I'm by myself, I'm watching all the other families, and boy, grief and all of the things. That was so hard. So I tell people, and not in a pushy way, I mean, if they want to want to come and be part of it, fine. If not, like, hey, this is where I sit every Sunday. I try not to miss, and you don't have to sit alone. And we go take this is the other thing. If you don't think about taking like the Lord's Supper, communion. Like, that's kind of a like, do I want to go take communion by myself? Which okay, it should be more about that. I understand. But just practically and often being honest, and you're seeing everybody else going and praying together. So just that, and the kind of the cool thing is so some of us that sit together and do that, then other single women in our congregation sometimes say, Hey, can we come and join you? So anybody can say, Hey, here's a place to sit. So super simple. And then the other thing you were talking about, we have once a year we have missions fair. And so that is that's our church ministries. There's ministries and things from all over the community. So the really cool thing that happened, because we do have a lot of ministries, and I'm like, all these ministries need to like be talking with each other and referring people. And so divorced care, the divorce care people, so they came in and said, This lady just came to us, but we know now what you do. She belongs with you because you have this is a whole different animal. So I've been helping her, but this is what I loved about divorce care. They didn't say, like, not pass her off. They're like, Oh, we're gonna love on her. We're gonna like bring, like, say you can sit with us. They invited her like for Christmas, they gave her food. And so they're like, We're gonna love on her, but we know this is where you need expertise. And it happened to be at that mission sphere. And so we have all the community resources and we have a food pantry. So I could take her just in that room and introduce her to people. And so that's I again, I'm all about resources and connecting people, also.

SPEAKER_01:

That's such a vital thing. And churches tend to know when they're paying attention and they look for it, the local community leaders, right? And they know local resources and ministries. And to be able to say, hey, let me put in a call for you to XYZ, or, you know, hey, here's where you go. Because we know for some survivors, transportation is a problem, finances are a problem, housing is a problem. There is so much that goes into abuse that people don't think about, right? They think, well, you know, hitting, punching, maybe, maybe they'll get to emotional abuse as being a problem. Hopefully they will if they listen to this podcast, you know, but they don't think about like all the other pieces. And then it can feel like, how are we as the body of Christ supposed to meet this? And I'm like, well, I mean, there's a whole community that you can engage in and meet with and make partnerships with. So it isn't all just the church, but the church is a greater connector of people and community and all of that. And that's really what you guys are doing. And then knowing, I love that you said the ministries need to like talk to each other and know what everybody does because you could have a marriage ministry. And if you don't know what to look for in terms of destruction or coercive control, you might be treating the wrong problem altogether. But if you know this is not okay, there's a pathway out. And what I would love to see at every church would be a men of peace type group that's for the destructive partner and then a group like yours for the victim. And to say, like, you're gonna go over here and this is we're gonna invite you to repentance, perpetrator of abuse and victim of abuse, we're gonna take care of you and make sure the kids and you are good and we're gonna make sure that you have counseling if you need it, and all those kinds of things, right? And then if there are other underlying things, like potentially for the perpetrator with sex addiction, then do you have a pure desire group that they could enter into and all of these things? And if you're all talking to each other and saying, here's how we help people and disciple them, because ultimately this is discipleship, then you're gonna be in the very best place. But just not forgetting some of those practical things. I love what you said about sitting, that is such a hard thing. When you go from being the intact family to having your world explode, because that's very often how it feels and what it happens for you. Then you're like, Well, how do I go to church? Because now I got to be by myself for everything. And you feel like someone has stamped a giant D for divorce on your body. And you're like, Yeah, look at me, look at me, I'm all by myself. And that we were created for community. Healing happens in community. We were created by a triune God that's already in community. So to say, sit with me, here's a safe place. And my church does that as well, where we have a women's abuse group and they often sit together and they go do things together. And it is so beautiful to see that because then people can come into a service and not be alone. And that's so hard when you have to feel like you're alone. So that is something that every church today could listen to and go, oh, do we have somebody here that would do that?

SPEAKER_00:

And then do it. Well, and the beautiful thing about that is especially, you know, we're we're about to start year four, is because let's be honest, people are watching, right? And so then they're watching. So the church is watching these amazing transformations and these women loving on each other. And I'll tell you another practical thing, we have a group that's minute work, and so some of the women that needed help moving out, they'll go help move, and some of our deacons and things are on it. So I'm gonna tell you, they went to this, like they had all the trucks, all the things went to move this lady, and she had a little, I think he was four months old at the time. And so they're like all ready, and then they bring out a load. Okay, where's the rest of your things? That's all I have. Oh, you think that didn't change them? And so then I mean, then we had Deacons' wives giving her clothes, and so again, it's so transformative, not only for the women, but it transforms the church. Again, over time, right? None of this is like in our microwave culture, it doesn't work that way. But that's what I think is so neat is to watch the women transform, but to watch our church transform also. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think, you know, for the senior pastors, the lead pastors that are listening, this starts with you. You know, you are going to, even if it's an elder board-led church, you are still gonna be the loudest voice. And if you are on board and you say, We are going to have a safe enough church, we are going to care well for the oppressed. And you just start a few of these things, right? You start a space that's safe. You start, you know, like, hey, maybe we could host a dinner, you know, whatever that looks like, right? And you find and engage community partners, like you had said, Chick-fil-A and Schlotskis and stuff. A lot of times, and I used to do this like way back in the day when I had planted a church, I was the donut gatherer. And so I would go in to Duncan and just say, Hey, I'm with this church. Would you have any donuts that you want to donate? And we would get donations of donuts, and I would bring them to church. And so, you know, those are things that, as you again build community partnerships, are going to be a good thing where churches can get donations from community partners for food things, you know, all that sort of stuff. And that's huge. My particular church has a really good relationship with Young Lives, which is for teens who have had babies and they serve both the mother and the father so that everybody can be healthy. And there is like a baby donation store that our church runs. And the vape shop that is next to it was so impressed by all of the things that it was doing, that they also have now on the counter in the vape shop a donation bucket for people to donate things to this ministry. And if you don't think, not only does it change the church, it changes the community, right? We have a vape shop now collecting donations for baby goods so that these families can have what they need. And so, what else could a church do that would invite healing? And I can only imagine what it was like for those deacons to go, this is all you have. And to see the poverty that so often befalls victims of abuse and say, Oh, we can do something about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yeah, sometimes we make it way more complicated. And I will say this to churches also, even if they're like, this feels scary to me and I don't know where to start. Something that I think works in tandem. So I also did Association of Christian Counselors, their certified mental health coach training. And in fact, we have lay counselors going through that. And I think that is such a good, just even foundation. And then they do, like Leslie Fernick has a course in there that's a great place to start. And then you could branch out, you know, I love Call to Peace, uh, their advocacy training. In fact, I'm about to go back through it again just because I want to soak it all up. And so even if you just start small, like I think it feels overwhelming if they're like, oh my gosh, and then how do we start this tomorrow? I mean, remember, we're in year four. And there have been some missteps. I will tell you, one of them, we talked about Lisa Turker's, it was a little bit down the road, and they kept on talking about the forgiveness. So I was like, Well, we could with some caveats, right? I'm like, we'll do forgiving what you can't forgive, which sounded like a great idea. But at that time, a lot of what she was teaching, of course, had come out that she didn't, you know, it didn't turn out the way that she was hoping. And so I found like the women were just. Just racing, or they would like listen to the video, like, no, you don't know what's gonna happen. And then I realized, oh my gosh, like I'm this is trauma traumatizing to the women. And I was like, hey, we're not gonna do this anymore. So don't be afraid like to make missteps. Get some basic training and start small. And with me, I feel like I'm always running to keep up with God. If you have a willing heart and you love people well, he will show you the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I do think that's so important. You know, progress, not perfection in all of life and ministry is such an important thing, right? Because we might try something and it doesn't go well. And here's what makes the difference to survivors. Yeah, that didn't work. Sorry about that. Let's try something else, right? Yes. And I think that is something that I would hope that all pastors hold to heart is if you make a misstep in a ministry of any kind, to go, oh, we didn't realize that. And because that that happens. You know, we didn't realize it would look like this. We didn't realize it would have that impact, right? And the information in Lisa's book is probably fine, but it wasn't the right time for the group that you had. Yes. And so to go, hey, this isn't where we're supposed to be right now, we're gonna reset. That is something that then all of the participants go, uh, because they've probably never had repair. Yes, they've probably not had never had anyone apologize. They've probably been told, actually, it's all your fault. In fact, it's all in your head. I don't know why you have a problem with this book, right? They've been gaslit. And so for ministries to go, yeah, that wasn't it. Yeah, and to do something a little bit different is actually healing. Repair can be so hugely healing.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I agree.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that builds that relational equity too, right? And and for people in the church to say, okay, you know, like we're doing our best, and then watching people thrive. Like those are some of my favorite stories that I've heard from you over time of what the women are healing and then doing. You know, and not that our healing is overnight, it isn't, it takes a while, but as we heal, then we do pour that out. We pay it forward. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That leads to a thriving church, a thriving community.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? I always say in my practice, we're changing the world one relationship at a time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

One relationship in counseling, one relationship in discipleship, one relationship in coaching. As people heal, then it impacts their families. So, what kind of parents are these women to their children who've been traumatized? What kind of example and light are they to the rest of the world as they walk in whatever God has for them? Like it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because when I had the initial time that I met with the larger staff, I which I don't know. I don't want to make this sound like it's a business model because it's not. But I just said, okay, if I have 10 women in my group, and at that time, they averaged three kids each. I'm like, so you have 10 women, and then also the men, which, you know, and we know, and that's what we see also like statistically, they kind of usually don't go on their healing journey, they kind of do something else. But again, so you have 10 women, 10 men, and then you have three kids each. Okay, that's like 50 people, right? Intend my math, right? That you have the chance to impact their lives. And that you're also making a generational change and you're hopefully breaking cycles. And so I just think for as much as there may be a fear there or different reasons not to start, we don't realize the incredible impact that it can have. And we do know it okay, it is complex, it's complicated, it's messy, it can take you into some very dark places. But I love this. Scott actually just kind of gave me this this morning, thinking about I don't know if y'all did a candlelight service. I love candlelight services, and I don't know, this whole month we had kind of candles on the stage. And I was thinking about the beauty of the candlelight service is when all the lights are turned off, when it's dark. And it's not just white candle, when you look around and you see all of those candles, right? And so that's the church. When we look and everybody is shining their light, and we're all doing it at the same time, and we're going into those dark spaces. Now, we could have had the candlelight services and said, we're not turning the lights off, we're just gonna leave them all and look around. But it's not the same, right? So even though there's very dark spaces that we may be afraid to walk into, there's still the opportunity for the beauty, also is amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And the light has come into the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. Absolutely. And I think that's the thing to remember, right? Like if you're a church listening to this, or if you're in church leadership listening to this, and I hope you are, I would encourage you think about what is one step I can take. If I've never taken any steps, if I'm just learning about this, or even if I have a little bit of awareness and I don't know what to do, what is one step I could take? Could we learn something? Could we maybe go through the call to peace training? Is there something that we could do? What is one step we could take to become a safe enough church and to help these people and ultimately help the community at the end of the day for generations, like you said, which I love. And so for churches, if you're like, I need to figure out what step that is, look, hit me up. I can connect you with Don. I can connect you with all kinds of people and resources that you know can do that. My practice comes in and helps people with that. So we would be honored to walk with you and help you on this journey. You don't have to do it alone. Like we don't want people healing alone. We don't want you walking into this journey alone. And there are organizations like Call to Peace, like My Practice, like Peaceworks, that will help you on this journey and help you walk through what is it that I need to do? What is my next right step for my church in my context? And you start from ground zero sometimes, or maybe even from ground five point five, if you're like, at least I know I need to do something. And we will walk with you, we will help you find the right people to walk with you. Dawn, as we close out here today, what would you say to churches and leaders that might be listening?

SPEAKER_00:

I would just say, just realize the opportunity that's there. And again, it's a lot of what you've already said. Just think, what is one small thing that I can do? And it doesn't have to be complicated. And there are resources. Reach out. So, like you said, you don't have to do it alone. I would say, please don't do it alone. I don't do it alone. I work with a whole team of people, and so just be open and pray and honestly follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes we overcomplicate, right? We want, like, what is the secret sauce and all this? Like, just be open to the Holy Spirit and his leading, and God will open doors, he will open your eyes. That can be scary. Like it, that may be it. Just the prayer of like, open my eyes to things I might be missing. And because if you think about doing it all at the same time by yourself, it feels overwhelming. So just start.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Just start. And that's if you think about your ministries, that's how you started in the first place, right? Maybe I know when I planted a church, we started in somebody's donated townhouse. I was washing the little plastic communion cups because like we couldn't afford to buy new ones. So I had to like wash and sanitize them every week so that we could have communion. But, you know, we started with a thing. And you started your ministry with a tiny thing. It might have been a Bible study in a house, it might have been a small church plant, but it started small. You started your children's ministry probably with just a couple of classrooms. And this isn't any different, it's just a different topic. And so I love that start somewhere. And we are here to walk with you. We are happy to help you build your team out so that you aren't doing it alone. And Dawn, thank you so much for being on Hey Tabby. I am excited for the world to know you. I love you, and I know that they will as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. And I have already told you like I would like to just follow you around every day for a month or something because you are such a great mix of wisdom and humor and knowledge. And so you're amazing. So it's an honor to get to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thank you for coming on, and thank you to everybody who listened this week. We will see you next time on Hey Tabby. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.

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