From Betrayal to True Intimacy: How Real Healing Happens for Both After Sexual Addiction & Trauma

If you’ve ever wondered whether a relationship can truly heal after sexual addiction, betrayal trauma, or years of secrecy, this episode is for you.

In this deeply honest conversation, Tabitha sits down with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith, trained relationship specialists, authors of Building True Intimacy, and survivors of their own story of betrayal, addiction, and the long road of rebuilding trust.

Together, they unpack:

• The process of everything shattering and the slow work of rebuilding
• Why honesty and safety must come before trust and vulnerability
• What betrayed partners actually need for healing (and what harms them)
• How grief, accountability, empathy, and self-work make true connection possible again

Matthew and Joanna share what most couples never hear: healing is possible, but only when both people do the work. Their story is honest, raw, redemptive, and filled with compassion for both the betrayer and the betrayed.

Resources Mentioned:

Free HONEST Connection worksheet: raabsmithteam.com/free

Matthew & Joanna's book - Building True Intimacy: Creating a Connection That Stands the Test of Time - https://a.co/d/ihkKmFx

Connect with The Raabsmiths:

Instagram: @theraabsmithtea

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.

Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi

📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp

Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there

👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know...

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introductions
• 4:34 Why Credentials And Training Matter
• 6:06 Early Marriage Struggles And Frameworks
• 7:15 Discovery Of Sexual Addiction
• 13:10 Partner’s Relief, Grief, And Boundaries
• 16:43 Owning Harm And Choosing Personal Recovery
• 21:54 Honesty As Daily Transparency
• 27:25 Safety Beyond Sobriety
• 30:50 Grieving Together And Shared Story
• 35:37 Vulnerability Without Manipulation
• 39:59 When Couples Work Isn’t Yet Safe
• 42:25 Redefining Intimacy Beyond Sex
• 47:29 Hope, Tools, And Resources

Transcript

Tabitha Westbrook: [00:00:00] Welcome to Hey Tabi, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not. Take two verses and call me in the morning.

I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and wellbeing. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope.

Now let's get going.

Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabi. I am super glad that you're here and if you're watching, you'll see that there are two other humans here with me and I'm gonna tell you about them. And if you're listening, you're just gonna get to hear about them. So this is Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith, and they are trained relationship specialists, speakers, and authors of the book, building true intimacy, creating a connection that stands the test of [00:01:00] time.

They have over 20 years combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples, toward healing and transformation. Currently, they co-lead the Raabsmith team where their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma.

Matthew is a professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation, a certified partner coach through APSATS and a restoration coach. Joanna is a licensed marriage and family therapist, EMDR practitioner, a certified partner specialist also through APSATS and a certified partner trauma therapist through IITAP.

The Raabsmiths live in the Memphis, Tennessee area with their three young children, and they prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball. Pickleball is like tennis lite to me, so I don't fully understand it, but I love that you love it and welcome to Hey [00:02:00] Tabi.

We're glad to have you here. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Thank you. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Good 

to be here. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. 

Pickleball is great. 'cause it's like low entry tennis. Tennis life. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Fantastic for when you're outta shape and you know, can't hit the ball quite as hard anymore. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. And just not as good. I mean, you can be bad at pickleball and it's harder to notice.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith: It's, and so like when you're bad at tennis, it's pretty obvious. So yeah, we like it. 

Tabitha Westbrook: I feel like I need to experience pickleball 'cause I haven't done that before. I know enough people now that are pickle ballers. Is that what you call yourselves? I don't even know. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, yeah.

Ballers pickle ballers. Right. We have, our team name is, the Pickle Me Elmos. And so 

Joanna Raabsmith: it was our, Halloween costume last year. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. And this is 

Joanna Raabsmith: matching teal jumpsuit. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Now this will tell you how good at pickleball we are. We rarely win against her aged parents who've both had major surgeries in the last year and they still beat us.

And so when we say we play pickleball, like we are outside, we're enjoying [00:03:00] nature and there's a thing being hit, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's like the skill level we would be super proud of. 

Tabitha Westbrook: I love that. That's awesome. And as long as it's fun, that is what matters. What I was looking at y'all's bio and thinking about our conversation, one of the things that I noticed and I love is that as coaches, you guys have real street cred.

And this is something that my listeners experience a lot, are coaches that say they do something, but they don't actually have training to back it up and can be really harmful to people. So I love that matthew, you're certified by the International Coaching Federation. Joanna, you're a licensed therapist.

So tell me a little bit about your journey and how did we get to here? How did we become the Raabsmith team? 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yes. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Not on purpose, I don't think at least. The really only thing we knew is when we first met and we started dating and we became a couple, and we were moving towards kind of a lifelong relationship.

Mm-hmm. We wanted it to be good. We wanted to have [00:04:00] a really great marriage. Yeah. And we were like, we'll figure it out. And so we actually, we got engaged two months after our first date, and we were married two months after that. And we thought, okay, we'll get married and then everything, we'll just figure it out as we go out, 

Joanna Raabsmith: we figure it out.

Can't be that hard. It's 

Matthew Raabsmith: hard. It's actually really hard to know how to have a good relationship with an intimate partner. And we kind of sucked at it at times. There were some things we're really good at. We have fun together, we can enjoy, we play pickleball, we like activities. Mm-hmm. But some of the deeper parts of the relationship were really tricky and really tough.

And so we found ourselves really not knowing how to get better. We wanted it to be better. We wanted to have a better relationship. But we didn't know how to do it. Mm-hmm. And we were really on a kind of journey. I mean, we would buy every book we could. If it had marriage in the title, we would be like, yeah, let's try it.

Right. And we would read it and we would be like, this feels weird or this feels right. And we kind of. We wandered for a little bit just on that journey until we were in grad school [00:05:00] together and there was a program called Strong Marriages Successful Ministries. And it was kind of like this idea that, hey, if you're gonna do something together, you should probably not hate your spouse.

You should probably like enjoy your marriage. Your marriage matters to what you're gonna do. And we took it. And it just like flipped a switch for us. 

Joanna Raabsmith: We learned a framework. It was based on a framework called restoration therapy, and so we learned that framework through the class and it completely opened our eyes to understanding relationship, understanding emotions, how they interact together, the cycles we create together when we're in our pain versus when we're regulated.

And it all made sense and we're like, this is great. And then it didn't work, and the creator said, why don't you go see a therapist for a few months? We went and saw a therapist, and the therapist helped us put into practice the things that we had learned, right? We learned that insight is not the only thing.

You have to learn how to change that insight into the way you [00:06:00] actually interact with one another. And so within six months, our relationship and some of the really nasty, toxic parts of our relationship that I honestly didn't think could fully change, it was a 180. It was completely different. And so I actually, because of that experience, signed up for a second grad degree, the MFT, and went back to graduate school because we felt really passionate about.

Helping other couples learn the things that we had learned. 'cause we knew there are absolutely other couples out there feeling the way we feel, wanting a healthy, thriving, deeply connected relationship, but not really knowing what are the tools to us get there. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And that really became kind of our plan, what Joanna didn't know.

I was starting to realize as we had started to do this work, as I started to get therapy, I started talking about my childhood and realized it wasn't as picturesque as I thought. And some of the things that I went through were really messed up. And as I was kind of on this journey and we were on this relationship journey, it became really clear that there [00:07:00] was this other kind of secret hidden monster that was really kind of pulling us apart.

And that was a lifelong struggle with sexual addiction and pornography use that had infiltrated our relationship. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. And so while there was a lot that had changed, it was really amazing. There was still something missing. And every time that I would pull. Just a little too close. Even though we both had verbalized that we had the same goal of deep intimacy, right.

All of a sudden something would happen and Matthew would get angry or he would shut down and pull away and withdraw. And I could not understand what was going on and what was keeping us seemingly stuck, even though we had made so much progress. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And we actually got exposed to a testimony of somebody who had went through this, Joanna did.

And when she was in a class and she kind of came home and she walked through the testimony and told me about it and kind of asked me point blank. She just looked at me and she said, is this the thing? And for my whole life, I'd always lied, I'd always said no, or That's in the past, it's not a big deal.

It's not there [00:08:00] anymore. Mm-hmm. But I had finally, my eyes had really been open to the damage it was causing her, our relationship my life. And so I just was ready. I was done. I was like, okay, yes, this is, this is the thing. And that just imploded our relationship, and really left us wandering again.

We kind of found ourselves going, what the heck now? And we kind of went into individual recovery at that point, Joanna, dealing with the incredible effects of betrayal trauma. Me knowing I had to deal with my addiction and we worked on parallel paths for a while and we kept asking ourselves like, are we ever gonna be a us again?

Like, are we ever gonna be that couple we dreamed of being? And there really wasn't a lot of resources out there. There wasn't a lot of frameworks about what that looks like, how you ever get there. A lot. When we asked people, they were like, well, you don't hate each other anymore. You know? That was kind of the story, and we were like, well, this is this.

Joanna Raabsmith: It kind of felt like all the resources got us to survival, which was great. We didn't feel like we were dying anymore, but neither one of us [00:09:00] was really excited about that, being the rest of our life, the rest of our relationship. And so we kept fighting, trying to figure out what are the resources that we need for our relationship that will get us to the place where we're really excited about us again, 

Matthew Raabsmith: and we're the kind of people when something doesn't make sense, we're just gonna go all in.

And so we kind of were like, all right. It worked to go all in before with the things we were learning about, like mental health and relationships and emotions. Let's go all in on recovery and what it looks like as a couple. So we just started reading, we started researching, we started working on our own relationship, and it really has blossomed into this thing where we now get the opportunity to walk other couples through the process.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And we kind of say all the time, like. We took the stairs, so hopefully a lot of couples can take the elevator. Right. It took us longer. It was harder. But we feel like we learned some things and now we get to share 'em and that's what we get to do as a life, which is pretty ridiculous. I think where we were 13 years ago when all of this was just unfolding and interrupting and kind of going [00:10:00] everywhere.

And where we are now is, I mean, it's really amazing. We're really, we're lucky that this is what we get to do and this is kind of how we get to live our life. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. One thing I wanna just point out for the audience listening are a couple of things I'm hearing in this story, and one is you both did the work.

I know for a lot of our listeners they're victims of betrayal trauma, and sometimes some of our listeners are the betrayers. Mm-hmm. And in some instances it is. Really, there's an abusive relationship, a coercively controlling relationship, where the betraying party is also a coercive controller and does not take responsibility for the harm that they've caused for their own addiction, for their way of being in the relationship.

And so what I'm hearing from you, Matthew, is I realized that I was not doing good things and I had to sit in the suck with this and see how I'd hurt Joanna and really hold that. And then Joanna, you had to see how you had been hurt. Mm-hmm. And maybe even I'm just gonna guess and you tell me if I'm [00:11:00] wrong, codependency aspects in the relationship, or tell me what it was like for you, because like that's a heck of a revelation.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. Yeah, it was, and it was , it was kind of twofold. It emotions all over the spectrum. I think there was first a sense of relief when I found out because I could tell my gut knew there's something there that I don't know about. And so when I finally knew what it was, right, that honesty piece was so incredibly important.

I finally felt like I had my power back, that I could make empowered choices for myself and what I was okay with and what I was not okay with. It's really hard to do that and to be assertive and have healthy boundaries if I don't know what I am, boundering, right? What I'm creating a boundary around.

And that kind of relief and not just for myself, but also hope for our relationship. Right? I knew like, okay, the thing that's holding us back is finally out in the open. We can maybe deal with it. We can deal with [00:12:00] reality and actually move forward from it. And so there's like that good hopeful, positive side.

And then there was the incredible, huge side of grief and loss and wondering, right? Having to completely rewrite my story of this relationship of this person I married of what this even means, right? All the things that I thought were true, all of a sudden felt like none of it was true anymore. And so reeling from that, and not just from our past, right?

We had built this vision of a future together based on what I thought the reality of our past was. So not just was my past shattered, but my future was shattered. I had, you know, you've heard a little bit of our, early relationship. We dated two months. We were engaged two months, we got married, we moved across the country to go to grad school together, right?

I was supposed to be headed the opposite direction, going to law school. I had put my entire life on hold and kind of shifted to this new direction. Which now felt like that doesn't exist [00:13:00] anymore. And there's the fear of like, I didn't know what Matthew was gonna do. I didn't know if he was gonna take responsibility, if he was going to be safe ever again, if he was going to make those choices.

And it wasn't for a long time before I knew confidently that that's the case. Right? Like, even though he may be in the first few months showed that he was willing to step into some things, that's still not reliable. We're talking about years of deception, decades of acting out behavior, right? Like that does not go away quickly.

And so it was years of waiting. And watching and wondering, is he going to consistently do the work to be healthy and to be safe? And so that was a really hard waiting period. Mm-hmm. Uh, for me, for us. Right. 'cause in that waiting period, we certainly didn't have the relationship we wanted. And so it's an awkward space to be still in relationship with someone.

Right. But with that kind of wall there going, but we can't get too close yet because it's not safe. And so yeah. Just so [00:14:00] many, so many different layers of kind of working through it. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah, absolutely. And Matthew, what was it like for you? To sit in the suck and to actively also be working on change because those two things are quite a tension.

And also there's this thing that you have relied on. Most of our listeners know I am a CSAT, so I work with people who are struggling with addiction, also work with betrayal trauma. What was it like for you giving up this thing that had been in probably some ways, your protection, your comfort, your security, your hidden shadow kingdom.

What was it like for you to go, I gotta stop lying and walk forward and holy cow, I have done some damage and holy cow, how am I gonna live my life without this and do something different? 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, I mean, like Joanna said, there was, it was slow and I, what I think helped was. I had come to the end of myself.

You hear that a lot in 12 step circles, right? That I had come to that place where I was like, I just couldn't take it anymore. And I think that was key, [00:15:00] Joanna, as much as she was like, Hey, if you want a second chance at this relationship, you've gotta be a different person. You can't show up the way you showed up.

And she was pretty clear about that. She was like, you get a second chance, you don't get a third. And I was like, okay. And so I was motivated. But I also, like you said, like I had spent my whole life not feeling anything. I thought I had feelings. I just didn't realize I was masking 'em all.

I was medicating them all. I was constantly running to anything I could to not feel something. Mm-hmm. And so having feelings for the first time, that definitely sucked. And they weren't good feelings because they were feelings of being faced with the damage that I had done and realities that I didn't want to accept.

And this has honestly been part of our whole journey. It took me years to realize that I gaslit Joanna. I would never want to associate with that term. 'cause I would think about how nasty and abusive gaslighting is. And it wasn't until we were at a professional event where someone was talking about, unconscious gaslighting.

The way in which liars and betrayers will often gaslight their [00:16:00] spouse and not be aware of it. They're not doing it intentionally, but they're always moving the pieces on the board, right? They're really keeping their partner in the dark. Those were hard realities because those are the things that tend to trigger my shame, which then wants to trigger my escape, which then wants to trigger my drugs and, anything that makes that feeling go away.

And so it was really tough. I think what helped was recognizing that. I had seen those patterns in the work we had done early on be so damaging. So before I took on sexual addiction, I actually took on my anger. I had a pretty big rage problem and an anger issue that I had gotten generations handed down to me, and I hated it.

And I hated how much it consumed my life. I hated how much damage it would do to our connection. And I had seen so much progress with our earlier work and my earlier therapy that I was like, Hey, if I can have that, if I can have this sense of actual kind of control [00:17:00] over my emotional experience and my responses with sex addiction and pornography the way I used to have with anger, I was like, I'm in, I want that.

And I think that was so key, was the bits of freedom that I was finding. I mean, it was like, water in the desert. It was like, oh gosh, it is so nice to not have this consume my life. And I think what's weird about recovery, when it's good, you start to realize how much of your life you had lost to addiction.

I always thought of addiction as like the little bit of time I would be doing this behavior. And when I started doing research on addiction and learning about my addiction, I realized like, no, this is a day long event. I would plan, I would preoccupy my mind. I'd be worried about how do I not get caught?

And I was like, you know, they talk about 10,000 hours and you become an expert at something. I was like, if I could have had those 10,000 hours back from my addiction, what would my life be like? Different. And that's what I get to kind of feel like now. Like in some ways I'm like, I [00:18:00] have all the time in the world now that I'm not giving it over to addiction.

And that's really a gift. And that gift, I think. Helped me to not make my recovery just about our relationship. And Joanna, my recovery became mine. I wanted it for me. Mm-hmm. And I still do, I still feel that way. Right. I still like recovery and what it does for me, the benefit is it lets me show up as the husband I want to be, it lets me show up as the dad now that I want to be.

And so that's just the kind of icing on the cake. But I think that's so key. 'cause I think a lot of people wanna run their recovery through their relationship. They want their partner to be the one that says, you're better, you're good, you're happy now. Right. And they don't necessarily, I don't, I work with guys sometimes.

They don't like recovery. They hate recovery. And I'm like, that's a hard place to be. It's a hard place to get freedom. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah, absolutely. That is. Such a profound statement. I think, and this is one I definitely wanna highlight for our listeners, [00:19:00] is it had to be for you, the benefit was the relationship, but you had to want it for you.

And this is something I see in abuse recovery frequently is, well, I just need to fix my marriage. And it's like, well, abuse is not a marriage problem. Actually, it causes marriage problems and addiction would be the same way. Addiction is not a marriage problem. It causes them, yes. Yeah. Yes. So you have to want it for you because you go everywhere with you, you, you follow yourself everywhere.

And so whether your spouse stays or goes is less relevant, right? Mm-hmm. Than whether or not you choose to heal for you because spouse, beautiful irony. 

Joanna Raabsmith: It was when he made that choice. And I could tell he made that choice for him, that I finally felt safe enough to really choose the relationship again.

Mm-hmm. And so I was like, okay, kind of right. You create the safety that your relationship needs by not making your recovery about the [00:20:00] relationship. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Right? Yes. And that's, and that is such a beautiful irony of it all, and I think even still saying that, right? So if I have anyone out there struggling with addiction, you know, this is a place where you don't wanna lie to yourself and go, I'm really doing this for me.

And you're really doing it for the relationship, right? That is part of that just brutal honesty you have to have is like, what is this to me? What do. I really mean to me in this, and where do I want to go? Who do I want to be? And I love, that you said that is who do I want to be as a husband and a father, as a man, as a human?

You know? And it isn't this. Mm-hmm. It isn't this. And it sounds like that also freed you up then to not be afraid of real intimacy versus seeking that fake intimacy that sex addiction often brings. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. No, I think it did. It was funny, I tell people all the time, like, when you lie, the one thing you prevent is being known.

Right. And so, I was so desperate [00:21:00] to be known and wanted, right. My childhood experiences had told me that there were things about my personality that put people off that they didn't like. And so I learned that if I could mask and hide and act a certain way, I could get people to like me. Mm-hmm.

But what I realized was that doesn't actually feel like being liked. It feels awful when you're constantly manipulating people into liking you. And so coming to this place where I'm like, I'm gonna tell the truth. I'm gonna be honest and I'm gonna let you choose how you feel about me. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Mm-hmm.

Matthew Raabsmith: Was the first time I actually felt chosen when Joanna said in our relationship, like, I'm giving this another shot. That was the first time I realized, wait, hold on. Someone can know me and know the parts that I've not wanted them to know, know the parts of me that I think they're gonna reject, and I got to actually experience being chosen in that.

Mm-hmm. And which helped reinforce my sense of like, oh, I must be pretty cool, right? If she's gonna choose me, knowing these things. And that's a huge part of this journey. One of our early experiences [00:22:00] was a full disclosure, which meant sharing everything that I had kept from her. Mm-hmm. Not as a punishment, but as a way to release holding onto that and going, well, what if she finds out about this?

What if she finds out about this and letting that be something then she gets to deal with, because that was gonna be part of her healing too, because she was asking those questions. What if? What if? And taking that off the table was so important for both of us to experience the kind of relationship we wanted to down the road.

It didn't produce instant intimacy, but it paved the way for it. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah, that is amazing. And Joanna, what was it like for you? Because as he's changing, right? The entire system is changing and from marriage and family therapist to marriage and family therapist, we know it's all about the systems. Oh yeah. So your system was one way for a long time.

You know, even with the good parts that you had been able to build, there was this secret shadow just kind of hanging in there. And so you would've had a way of [00:23:00] being in that system. What was it like for the system to be upended for you? 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, it was really, it was interesting 'cause there's a lot. That was good and exciting, right?

Like positive, like the honesty. We did check-ins, we started daily check-ins very early on. And so we were connecting, he was showing up more honest. And then, but there were still pieces where again, what we're talking over a decade ago, we're going through recovery, right? The resources that are there now, were not available.

And so we didn't know a lot of things that are kind of more widely known and talked about, right? Pieces of like, , impact letter, that wasn't really a thing. And and neither was empathy, right? Like him needing to hear and understand my pain and hold that well. And so we kind of created our own experience of that just 'cause like our bodies told us we needed it, but it did not go well.

It was not pretty and it didn't create the healing we needed. And it kind of put everything on pause. And my body told me like, well, I can't move forward [00:24:00] towards connection and intimacy. 'cause I'm not feeling safe. I'm not feeling like he understands my pain or is willing to consider that and really take that into account.

And so probably for several years we kind of, we were at like a standstill in our relationship. Just kind of stalled out and so I think there's a lot of grieving during that time for me going, okay, the dreams of what I had for our relationship. They're gone there, there's no way we can ever get there because this breach in our relationship is so great that it's not something we can get over.

And so there was a lot of questions of like, okay, am I willing to just be okay with that? And okay with that kind of relationship moving forward, never having that connection, that intimacy that I really wanted. Or what are the options? And we tried different options and they weren't working great.

And so, yeah, so there was a piece of like, okay, what are we gonna do with it? And kind of like Matthew was saying, when we did that work early on before entering in [00:25:00] recovery. I had done my own work as well, which I think in a lot of ways set us both up to go through recovery really well. I can't even imagine what it would've looked like if we had not learned the things about ourselves that we did before we started.

Right? And so I learned, I understood like when I am triggered, when I'm feeling unsafe or unloved, right, there's emotional triggers and how I'm tempted to cope or respond through being critical or controlling, right? And I kind of knew like, that's not gonna work. That is not going to work in this process.

And I will never, ever be safe relationally if I have to control his recovery, if I'm responsible in any way for his sobriety. And so when Matthew says, like, I was like. Here you go. It's up to you. It really was. I really did kind of hand it off and go, like, I know my coping will not help this process, and so I'm gonna step back.

And it's hard and scary, especially if you're a control coper. It kind of works sometimes, and so I'm like, I bet I have some great ideas of what your recovery could look like, right? [00:26:00] But so it was really scary stepping back and going, but it has to be your idea If I'm gonna trust you, I have to know that you can guide your own recovery.

And so now that doesn't mean I didn't have a voice. It doesn't mean I didn't speak up if something didn't make me feel safe. Right? If there was an area that felt like it was missing and go like, Hey, this doesn't feel good that you're not, you know, not doing this or walking in this. So I was still a part of the process.

My voice was there, but Right. It was very much, and I like, but I'm gonna be hands off and see what you do with that. See if you step up and take responsibility in those things. Mm-hmm. 

Tabitha Westbrook: That's awesome. And I think that's such an important thing I think for the folks listening is you did your work. Mm-hmm.

And you knew where am I tempted to lean in in places that aren't helpful. Yeah. 'cause of course you wanted to control it. Of course it would be terrifying. Like, what are you doing? What are you watching? What's on your phone or on your computer? Or fill in the blank. Or you know, for folks, depending on how the addiction is playing out, where are you going and who are you talking to?

And all of those [00:27:00] things like, so the temptation to like be all up in his Kool-Aid would be very, very strong. And this is one of the reasons I often tell betrayed partners, do not be the accountability partner. That is not helpful for you. It just fuels that. Like I have to be the one that's responsible.

Joanna Raabsmith: Parent child. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. Yeah. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the things, so in our book, Building True Intimacy, we walk through the kind of couple's restoration journey that we've created with Dan Drake, the intimacy pyramid, and is kind of how do you build healthy intimacy, especially after a rupture and betrayal.

And that bottom foundational level is honesty. And we define honesty as the ongoing practice of transparency. And one of the things we really emphasize, and part of that is from our, our work, but also our own relationship, is that healthy honesty is when that person is proactively practicing it, right?

It's not me digging for information, asking a million [00:28:00] questions, right? It was kind of like, no, you either let me know those things through this act of transparency, or you are choosing to continue dishonesty in this relationship, and I'm going to make a choice on whether or not I wanna be in that kind of a relationship.

Tabitha Westbrook: Yes. That is such an important piece in general, and I love that, the bottom level, because when I think of pyramids, right, I think of, you know, foundational things and they work their way up and all that. And when I look at that, honesty really is such a foundational quality. If you even take from the Gottman, sound relationship house, right?

Trust is one of the walls. And if you lose a wall, then your house falls over. So. Having that as the basis. And I love the proactive honesty. I think sometimes there'll be the, I found out through who knows what, and I ask you about it. You didn't lie to me. Mm-hmm. Still didn't come to me. Right. And that's, that's a

Matthew Raabsmith: and part of recovery for me was [00:29:00] realizing all of the ways I practiced dishonesty. And often I'm not intentionally like, you know, something that became a joke between us. I'm really bad with, estimation and exaggeration. Right? Mm-hmm. And so Joanna would be like, Hey, how long of a trip is it to get to the beach?

And I'd be like, I don't know, six or seven hours. It's 12 hours. Right? That's a different trip with three kids. And that can sound like no big deal. Mm-hmm. But when I'm talking about. Right. Addiction, when we're talking about affair and betrayal, right? How many partners did I have? How long was I involved?

How much money did I spend? These are big things. And so the specificity matters. Mm-hmm. And so I began to recognize, oh, this exaggeration and lack of specificity is a way in which I'm dodging reality. I'm trying to kind of live in a fantasy that I can get to the beach in seven hours. I can't, I'd like to.

Right. I wish it was 30 minutes. And so I had to realize that of like, oh, that's a way in which I'm kind of practicing this, this shady reality rather than the real thing. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. And 

Matthew Raabsmith: going, yeah, it's 12 hours. Do we [00:30:00] still wanna make that trip? 

Tabitha Westbrook: Mm-hmm. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Do we still want to do that and make that investment?

Because what I realize is when we make the decision together, that will drive 12 hours. That feels so better than going, Hey, I tricked you into seven and now you're seven hours down the road. You gotta put in the other five. Right. And then no one feels good about that choice. And so those were the things that, like the years of recovery have taught us that honesty is not always just something that, like you said, is like, I have a lie and I'm not telling you the lie and you're asking me directly.

And I'm like, right. It can be those little ways in which honesty is eroded, which means the safety erodes. Yeah. And we find that a lot of couples will be in recovery for a long time and they won't know why. Mm-hmm. And it's usually things like this, it's these experiences where the partner's gut is telling them, wait, something doesn't feel totally right.

Like, it feels better. I can see the changes, but something is telling my system Right. That it, that not all is okay. And it often can be these little pieces that pull the [00:31:00] threads of honesty and safety and trust. 

Tabitha Westbrook: I, I love that. And I love the example because it's not specifically addiction related, but it's addiction related.

Right? And this is the thing, it becomes your way of coping. I don't want it to be 12 hours. I want it to be seven. I want it to be less than seven. But now I've roped you in. And even that right? Erodes that trust that Joanna would have if you just said, it is 12 hours. Do we wanna drag our children into this?

You know, how bad do we wanna be at the beach? Right. And that when she says yes, then it's also a very free, honest yesss A yes with the full understanding. And it builds trust in other areas, you know, and I think that's the thing for, any of the folks who are listening that are struggling with addiction or compulsive sexual behaviors like that.

Commitment to honesty and transparency in everything is what's gonna help rebuild. And it may seem like a white [00:32:00] lie or inconsequential. Mm-hmm. And it's just another, I can't trust you. I can't trust you, I can't trust you. And that's hard. And you kind of eased into your next level of the intimacy pyramid, which is safety, because there is no safety without honesty.

Absolutely. Yeah. So when you get to that honesty, let's talk about safety. When we are being transparent in all those spaces. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. It's in some ways the hardest, right? Because honesty is like, kind of naming what it is. Safety is, are we gonna deal with it or not? I recognized I was, in the steps, right?

There's step one, which is, Hey, I know I have a problem. Step two is there's a God that could do something about it, right? There's a higher power that could help you. Step three is, are you gonna do it? Are you gonna give your life to God? And that's the step where a lot of people struggle. And that's really where we see safety happening, is what kind of person do I want to be, and will I commit to showing up that way?

Yeah. And that means I'm gonna have to take responsibility for the things I've done. Part of what I didn't want our journey to be was there to be any impact for my [00:33:00] choices. My hope. Early on was that I get clean, I get sober, she'd say, thank you, and we'd never talk about it again. It was, I had the plan mapped out.

Right. Trauma has a way of wanting to be heard. Right. And Joanna was like, no, this is, this can't go away. It has to be a part of our reality in some way. And I was terrified of that because what I thought taking responsibility mean would mean, would be Joanna would have this forever vision of me.

Right? I would always be the bad guy. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Mm-hmm. 

Matthew Raabsmith: I'd always be the betrayer. I'd always be the addict. That would be all I would ever be. It was interesting as I accepted the reality of my addiction and of my choices, I actually got to be something other than those things. Right? Mm-hmm. I got to be a husband who had harmed our relationship severely, and a husband.

Mm-hmm. Who had shown up faithfully in ways, right. Who was repairing in ways. And so I think. Such a big part of safety is that willingness to say, I [00:34:00] recognize I, yeah, I did damage, and I'm okay with the work it's gonna take to get us back to where we want to be. Mm-hmm. , Because there's no way to be where we want to be without that work.

Mm-hmm. And , Joanna talked about that waiting period. That was me for a long time going, no, I'm sober now. We're good. Move on. Right. And our relationship was like, no, you won't. Right. And as soon as I recognized like, oh, we're not going anywhere until I accept this. Yeah. Then we started going places, then we started having different experiences.

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah, that is really, I think, very helpful and profound for our audience to hear, because this is something I've said in perpetrator groups that I've worked in. So I've worked with abusive men and invited them into a different space, and boy, do they hate the label abusive. And I'm like, yeah. Um, well, I don't know what else we would call it, but okay.

You can call it a ham sandwich if you really want, but it's really when you embrace it and go, yes, this is what I've been, this is who I've been, [00:35:00] and I don't want to be that person anymore. A lot of the things that we'll say in the abuse recovery groups for the men are. You know, it's abuse accountability groups really is when is a thief no longer a thief?

It's not when they stop stealing, it's when they become generous. It's a different heart. And so when is an addict no longer an addict when they are committed to using healthy things and healthy ways of dealing with emotions and the brokenness and healing that, and not turning to that as their way of coping or way of solace or any of those things.

It's also knowing the harm that it has caused. It is that, what are you gonna do with it? Step three? It's so, so important. I've had guys tell me all kinds of things and they tell me, I did all these things and there's transparency, but not vulnerability and those are very different. And I'm like, oh, you're white knuckle sober.

Let's get into that. Right? 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah, that's, and it's amazing [00:36:00] because, getting into that work has reminded me what I like about being sober. It's reminded me about how far my choices were for my values, because that's really what addiction showed me is that the things I valued was not how I was living.

And that's why it felt so toxic to me because it wasn't that alignment. When I stepped into those hard places and those hard conversations, and I wanna be really clear to anybody who's listening, it's never easy. It is never easy to hear Joanna even tell our story. I mean, when she talks about the pain that my choices put her through, there's still that kind of, those internal senses of, oh man, how could you do that?

It's in that discomfort though that I've been reminded of how good recovery life is. You know, Joanna, I love how she says, you know, people see recovery as this wall against addiction rather than addiction as the wall against the good life of recovery, right? Addiction is what is keeping us from the good life of recovery.

And once you experience the good life of recovery, you recognize like it's not a [00:37:00] wall against a bad, like it is the good I've always been seeking, and when you get that, you're kind of hungry for more. You are always gonna be tempted to want to push back to those old habits. And I still have these fights, you know, of like, my brain wants to go to self-soothing, it wants to go to comforting, it wants to escape, it wants to placate, but I know those choices always lead me to a worse live life.

Mm-hmm. And what we like about the opportunities where they're not always there, but when there's an opportunity to address what's happened directly, it feels totally different. Right. The fact that I was able to address this in the relationship that I caused the damage mattered a lot. Um, it was an amends process that was helpful, not only for me, but I think for Joanna and for us.

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. And Joanna, I think that. I am hearing the highlighting of the importance of your voice. Mm-hmm. And your freedom to talk about what you need to talk about. You know, even though it might make [00:38:00] Matthew A. Little bit uncomfortable and he still feels those little pangs, that it's still so important for you to voice, this is my experience and this is what it was like for me.

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. Yeah. A huge part of what we do in our work is helping couples like tell their story and that, right? And it's really easy, like for me to have my story of us and you to have your story, but for us to have our story as a totally different ballgame. And so it was really important in the beginning for me to have my story right, for me to be able to tell the story, the experience of the pain that I went through, the impacts, the losses because of the betrayal, right?

It's that in a way will somebody say it's that honesty layer for the partner, right? It's that I get to be honest about the reality that you've created for me, but also in our relationship. And so that, that took us, that wasn't as easy for us. It wasn't as clear that that's what needed to happen. And so when it finally [00:39:00] did, it was healing, but.

A, a imbalanced way is maybe a way to describe it. It was really. Helpful in building that safety level of the pyramid and even a little bit of that trust as Matthew begin to have more capacity to step into those moments and be present with me in those moments. But it still wasn't as connecting as we knew we wanted eventually.

And so it was interesting. So there was kind of a season and a relationship of that happening. But I knew I needed something more. I needed Matthew to be able to not just hold that pain, but join me in that pain. And that's when we talk about couples grieving, it's not just you being present for my grief, it's you joining with me in my grief and what couples experience when that happens, right?

I'm not alone anymore feeling that pain. We're feeling it together and we start to almost externalize the addiction or the betrayal, [00:40:00] right? And we become this team that's grieving. That addiction now. Now we still know. Yes, it was one of us that brought that into the relationship. Right? And that can be part of the pain and the grief, but it's a much more vulnerable and intimate experience at that point.

And so that's when we started putting together the pieces of the US narrative, our story, right? Those two individual narratives started to be united as we had a shared experience of what we've been through together. Yeah. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Right, and I'll just remind our audience that both of you were doing the work, right?

Mm-hmm. That it was not just one of you. And I have to say it because a lot of times abusive individuals in particular will say, well, I'm doing these things, and what they're doing is hoop jumping and checking boxes. And there isn't that ownership of, this is how I've harmed and let me step into your grief.

It's an active avoidance of the other person's grief and even of their own grief for having caused the pain, right? Because [00:41:00] that is part of that shared narrative of we are both grieving, but also knowing that I'm gonna have to hold a bit more of my partner's harm because I'm the causer of it and I have to own that too.

So that's. You know, there's a tension there. It's hard. It's hard. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Really hard. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolute. Yeah. We, we find that people are saying, Hey, I'm doing the things they usually like, sorry, you're not there yet. Right. Like, if that's even coming out of your mouth, we know that you're not quite safe enough to hold that and share that pain with the other person.

Matthew Raabsmith: Yeah. I'll sometimes say like, you're doing some things, you just stop doing the things, not the things that, that are actually needed. Yeah. Yeah. And this is partly why we recognize this is a long journey and Yeah. You know, we, sometimes people hear our story 'cause we can tell it in 20 minutes and they go, wow, that was so fast.

And we're like, no, it wasn't. It was, it was, it was. Tough. There were days, there were months that felt like a slog That didn't feel like there was progress. Yeah. Yeah. And so I really want to encourage people if they're listening and they've been in this journey a while, that's okay too. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yes. 

Matthew Raabsmith: [00:42:00] The expectation is not that you get everything right and it moves quickly through it.

There are ways that you can make the process more efficient and I think more helpful. And those are things we've learned, right. But even the couples that we've worked with, knowing what we knew when we got to walk with them, they still have to go through those journeys of really wrestling. It did it, it took me years.

And honestly, one of the things that helped me was I went and got trained to work with betrayed partners. And I did that specifically because I knew I was having such a difficult time connecting with Joanna's experience. I really wanted to think about my experience and what I had been through and the horrible things that happened to me, and how bad it hurt to be a betrayer.

And I didn't really wanna step into her journey. And it was actually in getting trained to work with betrayed partners, even though I don't do that a lot, I work more with couples. Right. But getting to know the partner journey, that's when I really could better understand Joanna's story and I could step into it more faithfully and do that grieving with her.

And that did take a long [00:43:00] process. It didn't happen overnight. Mm-hmm. And even 13 years, it's still unfolding. There's still pieces of the puzzle that I'm recognizing that I go, oh, I, this hurt us. This held us back. This, this cost us something. And it's okay to name and be sad about that right now because we also have a lot, we are joyful about, thankful about, grateful for, 

Joanna Raabsmith: and being able to even talk about.

Costs in the recovery and healing process. I think couples think like, okay, all of the costs is like from the betrayal before we started doing the work. And there are so many moments along the way of when we're even, when we're being honest and we're both seeking healing individually and together. There are still so many moments along the way of pain, of grief, of we, oh yeah, we didn't do this right and that cost us, that was a loss.

And being willing to talk about those pieces along the way as well. 

Tabitha Westbrook: It sounds like as you heal as well, right? [00:44:00] And so we've become honest, we are building that safety, and now we can become trustworthy, move into the trust level of the pyramid, that that is that ongoing piece, right? And this is true for any couple, even if there's never been addiction or betrayal trauma, people are peopley and we are all, we in relationship, we gotta do the work, right?

Mm-hmm. And so that's an ongoing lifetime thing. And so even in quote unquote healthy couples, because man, no relationship is easy. Come on. That there's gonna be that ongoing work of, oh, this was a type of betrayal, right? Maybe not. And I wanna, I, I was gonna say big ticket betrayal, but man betrayal hearts, no matter who you are, and no matter what type or what size, betrayal stinks, right?

We betray ourselves at times. We betray our partner at times. It may not be infidelity or addiction, but there are little things where it's like, oh, I wasn't the kindest or I wasn't as honest, or, I did this thing that maybe I'm not super proud of. And you still have to reckon with [00:45:00] that over the course of forever.

Joanna Raabsmith: Mm-hmm. 

Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, that's part of why we ended up writing our book, not specifically for Betrayal couples. We weave a lot of our story in those realities along the way. But because as we were using this model, we realized this is a healthy framework for any couple wanting to build intimacy, starting with honesty, then safety, then trust, then vulnerability, then intimacy.

Right? And so, because we were seeing so many couples, that had it, like you said, had those big betrayals, but we could tell wait. But the thing is, you still don't have safety and trust. There have been little breaches along the way that is broken down, the safety you feel with one another, that trust you get to experience.

And so we're doing the same work as we repair every relationship. 

Matthew Raabsmith: I don't know about you, but when you're around someone who's done some work, you just can tell. And so we talk, we like betrayal couples 'cause they kind of get it. They're like, no, there's no half measure in this. Like, we [00:46:00] are all in or it's nothing.

And so I think that's what we love about our job is we get couples and they show up and they're motivated and they're like, ready to put in the work. Let's do it. You know where it's harder sometimes when things are okay. Right? When they're kind of, yeah. Good. Not great. It's easier to be like, well, we can survive.

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith: But I think what we love is when people get a taste of thriving, they're like, oh, no, no. That's what I want. Mm-hmm. I realize I can eat that every day. I want this good food. I want this really great thing, and I'll do the work for it. And it really is a joy. It's amazing.

Grief has led to so much joy in our life, and I always thought that grief was going to lead to disconnection, to sadness, like to the breaking apart grief has actually led to our connection. Mm-hmm. We get to tell our story, and every time I tell it, I still grieve. I still grieve over what we lost, but I get to know the joy of the work and the joy of where we are and the joy of our future.

We're just 16 years into this thing, and we're like, man, we got so much time to figure this out and to get [00:47:00] better and better and better at this relationship. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. Because you don't ever stop working on honesty and safety and trust and what, at least you shouldn't, at least don't at least don't 

Matthew Raabsmith: stop working on those things.

Or you might end up seeing us and you know, that's the gift. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what we get to enjoy about our future is knowing like, well, we, we know the work. Sometimes we're less motivated to do it, sometimes we're tired, sometimes we're overwhelmed.

But every time we step into those hard places, it pays off. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah, absolutely. I think. That is a misnomer. I think people think they're gonna live off of love and crackers and we cannot. They're lovely things, but they're not enough things. You have to really, truly work toward relationship. And I would even say that the intimacy pyramid, honestly, is for every relationship, whether it's a friendship or an intimate relationship, because relational intimacy is so important, right?

We were created for belonging, and as Curt Thompson says, we come into the world [00:48:00] looking for someone, looking for us. That might be our intimate partner. It's a fullest Expression is in God. But it's also in our friendships. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. 

Tabitha Westbrook: And there are a lot of folks who have come out of difficult situations, whether it was in childhood, in their marriage or in childhood, and their marriage, or in relationships and their people picker is a little broken because they don't know what to look for.

And so I think the intimacy pyramid really kind of gives you a beautiful framework for just relationship in general. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Let's talk about vulnerability. One of the things that, I don't know if you guys follow Chuck DeGroat or his substack, but he was talking about vulnerability, like faux vulnerability, right?

Mm-hmm. Oh, so it's like very good, right? So that like transparency, but I'm not really telling you the thing. So how do we know when someone's really vulnerable and we're actually seeing the heart and not the bologna? Mm. [00:49:00] 

Matthew Raabsmith: I mean, I go with the sphincter rule, right? Like, if there's something inside of me that grabs, right, that tightens that goes, Ooh, I don't know how I feel about this.

That's real vulnerability. Like, I was a pastor for years. I could kill faux vulnerability. I could be on stage, I could tell a sad story. I could self deprecate, I could tell something, you know, about myself, but I was always hiding the real stuff. Mm-hmm. And so vulnerability personally, from that side is when the heart catches, right.

Our co-author was doing research on this, and the definition of vulnerability is exposure to attack like it is recognizing that there is inherent risk in vulnerability and so if there is not some fear involved, right? Some sense of like, woo, is this, is this right? Yeah. It's probably not real vulnerability.

It's probably something that might be good, but not truly moving into those risky spaces. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's kind of from the internal. Mm-hmm. I think what the other person can do is we see vulnerability as true vulnerability without expectations. So what I would do sometimes in [00:50:00] vulnerabilities, I would be vulnerable with the demand that Joanna reciprocate.

Right. Like, oh, I'll do it, but you better do exactly what I do. Right. I want it back, or I want something for it. Right. I want, I want the cracker, I want the recognition. Yeah. 

Joanna Raabsmith: The, the trust or the affirmation or the Right, the whatever that is 

Matthew Raabsmith: true vulnerability says I'm choosing to do this 'cause it's the right thing to do.

Mm-hmm. This is how I wanna live. It's in accordance with my values. It's who I choose to be. Mm-hmm. And yes, you could use it against me potentially. You could choose not to reciprocate vulnerably. I will choose it. And I think that's the other way is that when vulnerability has expectations, it's not, it's manipulation.

Mm-hmm. And that's something that you have to watch out 

Joanna Raabsmith: for. Yeah. And I think one of the things for me. Because he was very good at faux vulnerability was, I like the question. One of his early counselors, he, he would tell me, would ask him right after, he would share everything. The counselor would say, now what's the thing you are not telling me?

Or What's the thing you don't want to tell me? [00:51:00] Right. And it, when you sense that is coming, then you know it's vulnerability. Right. When that person is willing to share the thing, they didn't want to share that. That is a much different experience of vulnerability. Yeah. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. And that's why you have to start with the honesty and the safety and the trust.

Right. You can't get into vulnerability, the openness to attack. If the other person is actually going to attack you, right? Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And we see that a lot in abusive relationships where there is coercive control. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of faux vulnerability on the part of the controller.

Mm-hmm. And so, and this is why couples counseling, couples coaching is not safe if that is present, because we don't have those bottom three levels. Mm-hmm. And so the betrayed partner, the victim will come in and they're gonna do everything they can to save that relationship because they care. It's always funny to me when people are like, someone's alleging abuse just to get a divorce.

And I'm like, have [00:52:00] you met people? Like most people don't go into marriage going, I would love for this to explode. This is how I'm getting out. This is my exit strategy. Right. That's not it at all. Especially in the church. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you have somebody coming in. Really trying to be vulnerable and share their heart.

And you have someone weaponizing that because those bottom three levels aren't there. Absolutely. And so I always tell folks like, unless this is resolved, unless we address the addiction, the abuse, the entitlement, whatever's happening, like, don't do this other thing because it will not be safe for you at all.

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And I had to realize that early on in our recovery, my vulnerability was more. Was really more kind of placed in my therapy, in my groups. Right. I recognized that our relationship wasn't the place for me to go dump all my vulnerability, right? I wasn't there to tell Joanna all of my sob stories and everything, right?

Because she was trying to reckon with her journey. And so a lot, even though I was practicing honesty, mm-hmm. [00:53:00] The deeper vulnerability work early on was in those therapeutic rooms, was in those counseling groups. Which then allowed me to figure out what real vulnerability was. Mm-hmm. And then to bring that into the relationship.

And I think that was really helpful for me, and I try to remind the kind of guys I work with is, I'm like, I know you wanna share all of your emotional experience with her, but you sometimes we have this term cry bully, right? You can get in there and you're battering her around with your emotions and you don't realize it.

You think you're being honest, you think you're sharing, and we want to work towards that vulnerability, but part of vulnerability is learning how to do it in a safe way, right? How am I vulnerable in a way that respects the other person's autonomy, right? That respects who they are and recognizes that as we engage, and 

Joanna Raabsmith: on the other side for partners, right?

I have to work with them to understand. I love how Brené Brown says it. She talks a lot about vulnerability and she says, right, we share that vulnerability. To with people who are worthy of holding that vulnerability, right? And so often, right, like that hurt partner wants [00:54:00] to share their pain and be vulnerable, but the betraying spouse is not healthy and safe, yet, hasn't demonstrated that they're safe enough to hold that vulnerability.

And so working on those internal boundaries with them of like. Yes. Someday we hope that there's enough safety in a relationship where you get to have that healing experience there, but you're not at that place yet. Right. You still need that safety, you need that trust. So we have to find other places for you to process that pain while you wait on that relationship to get to the place where it can now hold it for you.

Tabitha Westbrook: And the reality is the relationship may never get there. Like that is a real piece of it. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. Absolutely. It is. Yeah. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Or that the damage was so great. Mm-hmm. That it cannot be repaired. Yeah. And that's, you know, there can be a lot of grace and, understanding for what has happened in the relationship and for the struggle that the betrayer is going through in their own life.

I mean, I have tons of compassion for that. And sometimes the relationship [00:55:00] cannot survive what was broken. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith: It's true. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's okay, right? Like both people can still. Heal apart from the relationship, right? Like knowing like my decision to heal from what I've experienced, it's fully under my control, right?

And so whatever happens relationally, I still get the choice around my healing. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Absolutely. And then that leads us into that final tier of your pyramid, which is intimacy. Let's talk about what it is and what it isn't. 'cause I swear this is one of my biggest frustrations. And this is my frustration with the Evangelical Church, and I've said it out loud a number of times on this podcast.

So I'm gonna say it again. I think the Evangelical Church is a sex addict because all they ever talk about is intercourse and not all of the other parts of relationship, and it is so stinking frustrating to me. So let's talk about what intimacy actually is. 

Matthew Raabsmith: Yes. Intimacy is a life giving connection. And it's a life giving.

We, we talk about intimacy, it's generative. [00:56:00] It always gives life. That's when you know, it's intimate. And this is the way we understand God, right? It's theological. The trinity was so life-giving that it gave life to life, right? Mm-hmm. And so, that's what you see in intimate couples. And that is going to exist across all different spheres.

Yes. Physically, it can include physical intimacy, but physical intimacy is just a reflection of the intimate connection. It isn't the connection, right? And so when we wrote our book Building True Intimacy, people were like, oh, you wrote a sex book? And we were like, no. I mean yes and no, and, and right it.

And so it is like, but it is, it is so frustrating. But it is holistic. Intimacy is when every part of our relationship is working the way it's designed to work. And we're getting to experience a sense of passion. We're excited about our relationship. We have a purpose to what we do. Like there's a reason we exist as a couple.

We're not just kind of floating out there and we're playful, we're silly, we're uninhibited. And that is what really kind of fills [00:57:00] up the space, whether it's physical, emotional, spiritual, maybe just even as parents, right? We're, we're co-laborers raising children. We can do that intimately. And so that's really what all the work precedes us to get to experience.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Tabitha Westbrook: That's amazing when, because you said you were a pastor, and I imagine that was while y'all were married at some point. Am I correct on that? Mm-hmm. So you were a pastor's wife, Joanna? 

Joanna Raabsmith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Tabitha Westbrook: So when did, 

Joanna Raabsmith: we actually we're pastors together at several churches. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Okay. Yeah. So when did you both change your full understanding of intimacy to have the broader, more holistic perspective?

Oh. 

Matthew Raabsmith: I think when sex stopped being, my God, I think, you know, it was my idol for so long. It was the way I understood my kind of worthiness. And I think as we began to experience the other parts of intimacy, I think I had always understood intimacy just as sex. And [00:58:00] so when we grieved together and I got to experience an intimately close experience and what that felt like to feel something so close to someone, felt like, then I really started to understand, oh yeah, the sex is secondary.

It's a part of our relationship, but even if it, what if it couldn't be a part of our relationship physically, our relationship wouldn't be hindered. We wouldn't be any less intimate. We would be just as intimate as we are right now. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Yeah. And I was like, also on the other side, I think part of it for me too was when I started experiencing our sexual relationship.

As holistically intimate. Right. Where, where that emotional connection was so strong and so present during that time that it wasn't about sex anymore. Right. It wasn't, it was a wholly different experience than we had ever had before. It truly was an intimate experience and I think that that shift in [00:59:00] kind of understanding the purpose of our sexuality together also started to reshape just that understanding of intimacy as more holistic.

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. I think that is such a beautiful way to put it. And I would imagine, that. As a betrayed partner, even if you didn't know you were fully betrayed for a while, that there was this holding back. There was a piece of Matthew that was never there with you until that was out in the open being addressed, and then it was, then you got all of him, right?

Joanna Raabsmith: Yes, absolutely. 

Tabitha Westbrook: And I also love that you said Matthew, that even if you guys never had intercourse again, your relational intimacy, the intimacy in the relationship isn't compromised. And I think that's such an important thing. My friend Sam Joman, who wrote the book, the Sex Talk, you never got one of my favorite books for men of all time.

He talks about 83% of couples will have some level of sexual intimacy [01:00:00] struggle that they will stop having sex for a time. And there's a million reasons. Cancer, healthcare, we get old, you know, things like that. And. What do you have to stand on if you don't have relationship intimacy more holistically?

Yeah, 

Matthew Raabsmith: absolutely. 

Tabitha Westbrook: A hundred 

Joanna Raabsmith: percent. Absolutely. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And it's amazing because that's the gift that, it is the paradox as I let go of sex, I actually get sex back. I get it back in the way in which it was designed. And and that means I can let it go and I can get it back and I can let it go.

And that's when we know something is no longer an idol. Mm-hmm. And what's hard is couples will do this for a lot of different things. It's not always just sex. They'll try to make their relationship about something. Yeah. And they recognize like, oh, we're forgetting it is the connection.

That's the thing. And it's the way the connection represents what we're designed to experience in life. Yeah. And that reflection is really what's life giving. Mm-hmm. I think what we recognized was like, oh, as our relationship is better, that's what gives life to other people. [01:01:00] Because they get to see, oh, this is what's possible.

This is what it's like. And they like being in the presence of that. 'cause that's how we feel when you're around good people, healthy people, when you're around healthy relationships, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a mentor, mentee relationship, the health of that relationship can be life giving to other people.

Tabitha Westbrook: Absolutely. I swear, I feel like the intimacy pyramid needs to be like framed and put on people's refrigerators. I know when I've worked with couples, I've had them put like the gottman repair checklist on the fridge so that they can easily access it. Yeah. Because I feel like this needs to be there.

But then also I was thinking because this is how my brain works, that man, we're gonna get habituated to that being on the fridge. So maybe it needs to be more of a 3D object with like an every so often light that just comes on, you know, kind of like a kid's toy at 3:00 AM that terrifies. You love that.

Love that. And so you, you're standing there cooking dinner and it's like. Blinking at you and you're like, I gotta go look at that.

Matthew Raabsmith: I love that. 

Joanna Raabsmith: I was like, AI is a little scary to me, but I was like, I'm sure some AI could like listen to [01:02:00] your conversation and start flashing the level. It's like, oh, you guys need to work on safety right now.

Matthew Raabsmith: Our, our marketing team is just lighting up right now. They're just like, oh yes, this is great. You know, let's get more stuff swag, you know, 

Tabitha Westbrook: a 3D magnetic intimacy pyramid that flashes every so often. I buy it just 'cause it's awesome. 

Matthew Raabsmith: I, I swear. See 

Joanna Raabsmith: that? Send us picture. Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith: If you find it. Before we did.

Tabitha Westbrook: Well, as we kind of close out for today, is there anything else that you would want our audience to know about any of the things that we've talked about? 

Matthew Raabsmith: Hmm. I think just reminding people they're not alone in what they feel. I think, it was hard to feel like I held this secret for so long. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Mm-hmm. 

Matthew Raabsmith: And it wasn't until I knew that other people had been through that and lived and seeing the other side of it that helped me to kind of break out of my prison and to stop hiding things from Joanna.

And so I'm just always reminded of that. I know someone's listening right now that has secrets that that's [01:03:00] holding something back. And I think just recognizing it's just not the life you're designed for and there's a way better life on the other side. The journey's not the, the journey you'll want to take, I guarantee you that.

But it will be worth it. Every, everything that you get from it is worth it. And so, just reminding people that, yeah, 

Joanna Raabsmith: I think kind of, kind of the same, right? That journey of that pyramid, whether you're doing it on your own or as a couple, right? It is worth it. And so working through that pain, whether it's the pain and the grief of loss of being betrayed or if it's the pain of coming out of addiction and kind of that space, it's worth digging in to be the person that God created you to be.

It is a good life on the other side of all that work. And so, especially if you're at the beginning of the work or in the middle of the work, wondering if there, like, is there light anywhere? There is and sometimes like. Slowing down and looking at how far you've come already, reminding yourself of like any change is a significant change because [01:04:00] as humans, we don't like change.

And so even those little moments, the evidences of change are huge victories. And so remind yourself of those regularly and that can give you energy to keep moving forward. 

Tabitha Westbrook: Absolutely. Well, I wanna thank you guys so much for being here. I know that you have an honest connection worksheet that we will put in the show notes along with a link to your book and all the ways to find you.

It's been such a pleasure to talk to you both about this. I don't think we hear enough of the success and, and success is such a relative word, so I don't super love it anyway, but yeah. The story is where people did the work, where both people did the work, and I'm really glad that we're able to share your story and also share, like, this is what it looks like when everybody does the work.

And even if your relationship hadn't withstood it, the work was still worthy of being done. And I hope that our audience comes away with a different understanding of what it looks like when people really are able to [01:05:00] walk through all those levels of that pyramid. 

Joanna Raabsmith: Mm-hmm. Thanks so much. Thanks for having us.

Tabitha Westbrook: You're so welcome.

Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabi. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you wanna check out the show notes, head on over to tabitha westbrook.com/hey Tabi, that's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.