Hey Tabi!

Is Biblical Counseling That Doesn’t Suck Even Possible? What Trauma Survivors Need to Know

• Tabitha • Season 2 • Episode 23

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What is good biblical counseling, really? And why is it so hard to find, especially if you’re a trauma survivor who's already been harmed by “just pray more” advice, sin-sniffing, or spiritual bypassing?

In this week’s episode of Hey Tabi, Tabitha Westbrook (licensed trauma therapist, abuse expert, author of Body & Soul, Healed & Whole) sits down with Jacque Escue, a Certified Biblical Counselor and trauma-informed practitioner—who does not suck—to talk honestly about what healthy, safe, compassionate biblical counseling is… and what it is NOT.

If you’ve ever wondered whether biblical counseling can be:
 ✔ trauma-informed
 ✔ safe for abuse survivors
 ✔ actually helpful and not minimizing
 ✔ aligned with Scripture and real mental health science
you’ll for sure want to listen.

We dive into:

  •  How biblical counseling goes wrong and harms survivors
  •  Why “take two verses and call me in the morning” isn’t biblical or helpful
  •  How to spot red flags in a biblical counselor
  •  What whole-person, clinically informed, faith-honoring care looks like
  •  Why trauma lives in the body and why good biblical counselors must understand that
  •  How Jesus models embodied, compassionate care—not legalistic lectures
  •  What it looks like when licensed therapists and biblical counselors work together for healing
  •  How survivors can reclaim faith after spiritual abus

Wanna say hi? Send a text!

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.

Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

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📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
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🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

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👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know...

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby, and I have somebody really special here this week. I am being joined by Jackie Eskew, and some of you might know who Jackie is, but for those of you who do not, I'm going to tell you about her. Jackie is a certified biblical counselor through the Association of Biblical Counselors. She's also a level two supervisor through that organization. And she's an International Coaching Federation certified life coach. In addition to that, she is a certified Christian trauma care provider, level two. And she is also the biblical counselor that does not suck at the journey and the process, which is the counseling practice that I had up. And I am super stoked to have Jackie here today because we are going to talk about biblical counseling. Biblical counseling gets a lot of flack and rightfully so in a lot of places. But there are some really good trauma-informed biblical counselors who are not take two verses and call me in the morning. And Jackie is one of them. So I wanted to bring her on so that we could talk about that. So, Jackie, welcome. I'm so glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, Tabitha. It's so fun to be here. I'm just anticipating the fun we're going to have. We always have fun together.

SPEAKER_00:

We do have fun together. And we laugh a lot. So this might be filled with lots of laughter. So I want to talk about biblical counseling. First of all, how did you get here as a biblical counselor? So most young women do not grow up and think this is what I want to do. I want to become a biblical counselor. So what led you to this point?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say what led me to this point was recognizing that I needed good biblical counseling. And I wouldn't have said it that way when I needed it. So my own story holds a lot of pain from my childhood and then as an adult going through great suffering experiences of that. And I was looking for good counsel. And I felt like I wasn't really able to find that in biblical counseling at first. And then secular counseling couldn't offer me the spiritual guidance that I needed.

SPEAKER_00:

So did you experience good biblical counseling before you became a good biblical counselor?

SPEAKER_02:

I did not, but I would also say I didn't know of any biblical counselors in general. It was kind of a new idea for me. And so when I heard about biblical counseling, I decided to sign up because I needed that kind of help. I was thinking it would help me wrestle through these tough questions I was having. I actually took biblical counseling twice because the first time it didn't resonate with me as much as I wish it would have. And I was in a lot of pain when I was going through it. And so I was actually wrestling with God. And it would have been very helpful for me if I'd had someone to help me walk through it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So it sounds like the first time that you took biblical counseling training, it ended up being more of a like, this is what I need for me in this moment. And you were wrestling with your own stuff and working on healing. And then is it fair to say that the second time that you took it, you were much more in a place of healing and ready to be the helper?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, definitely. You summed that up very well.

SPEAKER_00:

So in that journey, right, part of it was you couldn't find what you needed. And I'm assuming, and maybe I shouldn't assume, say you tell me, were you in a church at that point in time? And what was the structure of that church? Did they have people on staff or in the church that could walk with you in that suffering?

SPEAKER_02:

I had a good community group and our church had a recovery type ministry, but we didn't have biblical counselors. And I didn't have someone I trusted to tell some of the harder parts of my story. Because as I suffered, I was going through different trials as an adult, things from childhood would come up, and I was wrestling with all of it altogether. And I felt like I was drowning. So I really didn't probably just didn't even try to reach out or tell that part of the story.

SPEAKER_00:

Would it have been helpful for you if they had had a good biblical counselor? And again, I'm separating out the biblical counseling that we're scared of and the actual good stuff. And so if they'd had the actual good stuff, do you think that you would have leaned in and been vulnerable with that individual? Or do you think you still would have been anxious about it and maybe not?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I think I would have been vulnerable. And I did reach out to the recovery ministry and I was part of the leadership of a recovery ministry of our church. And through the leadership training, I got close to a couple of individuals who helped me process the pain biblically. And which was a step in my journey. So I do know it's possible to have good biblical counseling.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. What scares you about biblical counseling as a general whole? Not maybe your own biblical counseling or what you experienced with really helpful people that did come alongside you. But as you look out over the landscape of biblical counseling, what do you see that concerns you?

SPEAKER_02:

This one might even make me very emotional because I see hundreds of women across the country and I hold their stories and I hear about poor biblical counseling. And it does make me very emotional. So what scares me is that people turn away from God. What scares me is that people are harmed and per heart, burdens are placed on people who are already struggling.

SPEAKER_00:

I would agree with you on that. You know, I think this is what as a licensed counselor I see when I take someone on that has had really awful biblical counseling, that it was all about sin detection, not the sin done to them, but whatever they are perceived to have done themselves. And it's very much take two verses and call me in the morning. And with regard to abuse, it is absolutely terrifying because they're often told, as our friend Joey Forrest puts it, stay, pray, obey, and lay. Right. So you just need to work harder and have more sex. And then your destructive spouse will no longer be destructive. You're clearly doing something wrong instead of actually looking at it like the Bible looks at it. And then that causes huge harm.

SPEAKER_02:

I totally agree with you. I think that a lot of the biblical counselors I know have great intentions, and I wouldn't classify them as harmful. But interacting with victims or w women looking for counseling, I think it sounds like the counselors have intentions. They want to honor God, they want people to be healed, and yet they feel like the way they do that is to make sure this person understands the rules, you know, that you need to obey, which is true, we're not saying that, but they don't see them as a person who's hurting and who's wounded and needs to heal. That they have spiritual issues, they're having physical trauma, I mean, experiences of trauma, which I know some biblical counselors don't really relate the two emotional and physical symptoms of trauma. I think that does a great disservice absolutely to people who are reaching out for help.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and all emotional abuse is physical abuse because unless you can take your brain out of your head and stick it in a jar, the last time I checked, it was a body part that caused physiological ramifications. And that is part of the trauma story. What made you interested in becoming trauma-informed?

SPEAKER_02:

I think as a biblical counselor, when I was counseling, it was meeting with real people and watching them suffer and struggle, and they have questions of they wrestle with God. And there were times that in the counseling room, I just knew I needed more skills to help them, to draw them in close, because they couldn't hear God's love and compassion for them if their body is in fight mode or flight mode, and that I needed to learn how to help them have open their ears to hear God's love and comfort for them. Because there was a woman, I remember her having an anxiety attack in the room, and I did not know how to help her. And I was praying and praying for her, and when she left, I just thought, I have got to become more skilled at this. I have to care for the whole person. I cannot just again read a scripture and pray, that is good, but she couldn't hear me. She was breathing hard. I thought, is this woman gonna pass away in front of my eyes? And so it's a triage situation. I need to care for her as a person.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I think sometimes biblical counselors as a whole, again, not you because you do not suck, but some biblical counselors look at it as if you just believed the right things and fill in the blank with right is, it's according to their theology, which might not be scriptural, you know, that if you just believe the right things, then you're just gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's very logical, right? Like logically, if I just tell you these things, you should be okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And as a trauma therapist, I can tell you if I could have talked our way out of trauma, right? We would have already done it. And so that's where talk therapy and theology induction, I don't know what you would call it, but just forcing theology on someone. Well, just you don't believe enough in God and you're not trusting enough and you're not filling the blank. And have you tried fasting and whatever falls really short because the problem isn't in their mind, although what we believe matters, it very much matters. But if trauma is held in the body, then we do have to help people start there, or we can't get to the head.

SPEAKER_02:

It was really helpful during one part of my story is that God gave me anxiety. I remember I was in a grocery store and being in a position where my body did take over, and I collapsed to the floor in the freezer section of Walmart, and I was praying, God, please don't let me die on the floor of Walmart. And so I believe he allowed me to experience that. One, that was part of my own story, right? I needed help with that. But secondly, to have compassion that something is happening that you cannot stop. There was no amount of, I mean, I did have a quick prayer to God, but there was no amount of someone coming up to me in that moment saying, Hey, you know, get up off the floor. You know, don't you trust God? Uh so I was praying no one would come down the aisle, an ambulance wouldn't come. And the Lord was gracious to me and helping me calm down. But that's an experience, and it happened in different ways at different times, but the Lord does allow us to experience that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And it's our very good bodies created by him that are trying to tell us something in those moments. Something isn't okay. There is a weight that is too heavy for you to bear alone, or there is something that needs your attention because our bodies are gonna signal when our nervous systems don't feel safe. And that's not just some trite science or secular thinking. That is looking at how we are fearfully and wonderfully made, right? Every biblical counselor I know will absolutely use that verse and say it and mean it and then not think about the implications of it. Obviously, all the ones that I know don't suck, and so not you, but they really don't look forward into like, if this is true, if we're fearfully and wonderfully made, and our bodies are made by a good and loving God who is trying to tell us something, let them speak to us, then why wouldn't we pay attention to what's happening in our bodies and what's happening in our soul when anxiety does overtake us and our body is just gonna nope us out in the freezer aisle of Walmart?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I think after that, I've been really interested in looking scripturally for how God does take care of our bodies and our souls. You know, I think it's in Thessalonians, he talks about sanctifying our soul and our body. And Jesus obviously cared about healing the body and the soul. I mean, he was very in tune with the physical body, encouraging rest and health and caring for people who physically couldn't walk, couldn't see anxiety, the woman who was bleeding for a long for I think 12 years, touched his robe, right? He had so much compassion when he turned to her. He's like, he didn't just say logically, would you stand up and tell me what you want? He had so much compassion and said, daughter, you know, who touched me? Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So much compassion.

SPEAKER_00:

So much. And if it were only about our souls, and it is, I mean, our souls for sure matter, but if it were only about that, he wouldn't heal a physical body. He would say, repent from your sins and continue laying on your mat, things will get better in heaven. And he did not do that, you know, he healed people, he touched people, he is coming back in a physical body. And I feel like when I look at some of the way that biblical counseling divorces our whole self from our mind, I think, in terms of it is an unintentional, or maybe even for some intentional Gnostic heresy, because that's the essence of Gnosticism. And so I look at that and I'm like, I don't think you want to say it that way. You might want to think that through.

SPEAKER_02:

No, that's a really good point, is that was considered heresy at one time, and yet we have a version of that. Like biblical counselors who may say mental health or brain disorders aren't real or physical symptoms aren't real, it is a very Gnostic viewpoint that only our spirit is what matters. But as you said, Jesus has a body, he still has a body, he's actually in heaven in a physical body. I think sometimes we don't realize that, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And he talks about indwelling us, right? We've become the temple of the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the spirit. Once we are part of the family of God, we've been grafted in, which is physical language, incidentally. And we can't not be embodied humans, it doesn't work that way. And when we try to separate out our embodiment, our fullest self, and just say, no, think yourself into something different, that isn't ever going to be super effective.

SPEAKER_02:

No, and it wasn't meant to. Again, scripturally speaking, throughout the Bible, it's care for the physical body as well as the soul and the mind, right? Like renew your mind. It's so it's your body, soul, and mind that he cares about right, it's our whole self.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think when biblical counseling gets off track with that, maybe because it's more comfortable. I know that biblical counseling started as a way to make sure that we were involving scripture in the care of humans. And somewhere along the way, it got a bit siloed, if you will, into a different space where it then really became an us against them kind of space. So if you have secular training, there is a sect of biblical counseling that if you have any kind of secular training at all, then you are considered essentially apostate. They've said some other words I won't say, but they definitely do not consider you terribly holy, which is hysterical to me since that's not the measure of holiness. But I think that it creates unnecessary division and it creates a lack of growth for biblical counselors to put their feet where you have, where you're looking at it from a whole person perspective and able to be Nate Brooks would call it clinically informed. So Nate Brooks is a professor at a seminary and he has done a lot of writing on these types of things. And so he would call it clinically informed biblical counseling. That's hard to say. How would you categorize it?

SPEAKER_02:

I guess I would say clinically informed, but just holistic. I mean, how I refer to myself because I don't really know how to refer to myself sometimes. But I think clinically informed, trauma-informed, I think we're just saying I have compassion on the whole person of someone. And so I do think it's important that biblical counselors, and that's what I hoped happens, even through this podcast. Any biblical counselor that's listening would consider getting training and skills, right, that encourage growth. We're to encourage one another, right? We are we are all about how to minister to people. And so I would love it if biblical counselors would consider getting more skills and training, because I hate to keep using secular because I don't really see you as a secular counselor. You are a licensed counselor, but you have great faith and you're a very godly woman. And so I don't, I guess I have a hard time with those words, the secular counselor.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think it's because I'm licensed and trained in things that are not coming directly out of a church, right? So I'm certified an EMDR and a certified sex addiction therapist and all kinds of good stuff. We joke about me being alphabet soup because there's a lot of letters after my name. But I think it has gotten conflated with faith, right? That if you go and get training from an organization that isn't a church or in some cases not the right kind of church, it just depends on who you're talking to and what they think the right kind of church might be, then you clearly don't love the Lord. And that's not a true statement, actually. I think that those of us who get training in different spaces, it's not that we don't love the Lord, it's that we love people and we want to be able to help them walk into healing in the way that Jesus would have them, which is gonna be meeting people in the dirt, right? That's how he was and is and still is. And so I think that's an important thing. Yes, absolutely. Right. So Luke was a physician. I think about that often. That would not have been training in a synagogue, right? I don't think, I mean, maybe there was, I don't know what synagogues did back in the day, but I don't know that it was there. And Luke was still an apostle and he still wrote one of the gospels and it was a researcher. I have searched to make sure of these things. Like, you know, he's writing to what is it, most excellent Theophilus, with all of the data that he has gotten. So I feel like where we get our training is less important than do we want to love like Jesus and get with people in dark spaces and sit with them and love them well in those spaces.

SPEAKER_02:

And we have that biblical point of view. I think that is the beauty of biblical counseling, is applying it to life, right? I totally believe that scripture is sufficient. I mean, some might tell me that I don't, but I know what I believe that scripture is sufficient, but I don't think it's exhaustive in a way that it gives us all the information. The Bible wasn't meant to answer some questions that we have about this life. And so we do look to common grace and research and science, even to fill in some of the details that are helpful to us.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I would encourage folks who are maybe listening to this and going, wait, what? A little bit, that they would think about common grace a bit more deeply. Because there are some places that, as the overall Christian church, the big C church, we're okay with common grace, like an MRI or a cardiology exam or a stress test or things like that. But we are not okay with common grace when it comes to EMDR or brain spotting or somatic experiencing or some of those other things that are truly based on observational research, what helps people.

SPEAKER_02:

I cannot agree more. That's one of the things I think I love about our partnership and friendship professionally and through ministry, that we've had an opportunity to connect together and work on cases together, that I can see the benefit. I think it really again helped open my eyes to how much I could learn from quote, like secular sources, which just means common grace, common grace sources that could help me. And it, I think our partnership helped the people we serve too. Absolutely. So we need to bring different elements to that.

SPEAKER_00:

So absolutely. And I think that's a it's an interesting thing, right? And and like all things, you should test stuff and make sure that it is biblically sound. So there are things that some creators of some therapeutic methods would believe that I would not agree with. I personally would not believe them. You know, I am not Buddhist, and some of the theorizers of various techniques are.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, it's amazing. You know, I think when I was growing up, we would look into space and see amazing things with telescopes and satellites, and it is amazing and it still amazes me. And yet there's more things we're learning all the time through science. We don't have to be scared of science, we don't have to worry that it doesn't display God because it does. Now, there are people who might interpret the findings in a way that they want the believers and unbelievers to interpret things differently, but I see it as the glory of God. And the training at the Eamon Clinic has been that is like wow, the brain is amazing that we can know that information and we can use it to help people and minister to people.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. We see the example of the ministry of presence with Jesus and with the apostles when they would sit with people. And I feel like that's a lot of what counseling is. Both licensed counseling and biblical counseling share that in common of the first and foremost skill that we have is to just be with, and to be with in a way that is non-judgmental and non-performative, I think is the word I want to use. Where we don't expect the person to do a thing, like they don't have to perform in some way to be worthy of being with.

SPEAKER_02:

That is a gift because I think most of the people I sit with, they are eager to want to obey when I say want to obey, like to honor God. They want to honor God with their life. And I just think we're calling them into a place that it's not performative, like you're saying. It's not, here's all the things you need to do to God for him to accept you. Here's where you're failing. So shape up, you know, get it in line that God cares about their person, where they're at spiritually, the questions they have, the suffering they've endured. We have a God who says he collects our tears on a bottle. That is not a God like, hey, well, get out and run some more, you know. Don't you know we have a race to run? So get out there and do it. I know that we do, in a sense, have a race to run, but that doesn't mean with compassion and care. You have to be careful about your analogies and what, and does that actually represent the character of God when we take an analogy and use it in a way that's harmful to people?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. I know the story of Elijah comes to mind, and I had heard it languaged about how his faith had faltered after all of the prophets of Baal had been incinerated, and then he ran from Jezebel because he was afraid, and how, oh, that was just a lack of faith and all this other stuff. No, look at how God treated him. And what God did was tell him to take a nap and have a snack, right? And then after he was rested and refreshed, then God came to him in that still small voice and said, Hey, you're not alone. There's still more that are my people. You're not by yourself. I know it feels that way. He wasn't punitive toward him, he wasn't angry, it wasn't any of those things. It wasn't like Elijah. Did you not see all the miracles? Like, duh. It was nothing like that. It was, I fed you, I let you rest, I took care of you and sheltered you. And I want you to see the bigger picture, and it's gonna be okay. And that is such a different picture than I think sometimes biblical counseling in particular, and sometimes just the church in general. Language is God, right? Yes, there is the holiness aspect, but it's not our creation, it's his, and he's responsible for us and for. Changing us from glory to glory to be like him. That's not work I have to do. I just get to like abide, which means hang out and rest in him. And yes, there are things I have to do, like I get to make choices and all those other things. But first and foremost, he meets me where I am. It is his kindness that brings me to repentance.

SPEAKER_02:

Such a good word. Such a good word. That truly is to me a life that honors God is recognizing our human limitations, that we are limited people. I cannot possibly expect that I'm going to, like Elijah was afraid, I'm going to be afraid. I don't see that as a sin on his part either. And if you look at all of the biblical characters on displays, you see their human limitations and God's compassion. God's compassion for that. And he's not surprised by human limitations. He's like, you're right. You're right. You have to depend on me. You have to have time to rest. You have to recognize you can't do it on your own. We need community.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And even Paul, there's a point, I think it might be in the book of Acts, where he said, I feared for my very life. Like they were basically praying for death is where they were at. And because things were super scary. And you never hear God go, What? And all of those sermons on do not fear, it's not a punitive God. It is the same as a parent's heart that says, you know, in a Texas thunderstorm, bless our hearts, boy, do we have a few. That would say, it's gonna be okay. Don't fear, I'm here with you. Yeah. Right? And it's not an admonition so much as an invitation.

SPEAKER_02:

I like the way you phrase that. It is an invitation. Just like when Jesus invited Peter out of the boat, it was an invitation. He's like, Peter, you can do this. Keep your eyes on me. You can do this.

SPEAKER_00:

And what an interesting thing for Peter to ask, also, if it's you, tell me to come out on the water and join you. I think about that, and everybody talks about Peter being impulsive, and he was like truthfully. He struggled. But that impulse in some ways with the Lord was, I want to be near you. Like, holy cow, this is crazy and cool. I don't know if I would have been bold enough to ask Jesus to tell me to come out on the water. The other apostles surely were not. They did not ask that question. And Peter got to have an experience that no other living person has ever had. Like when we get to heaven, I want to ask him about that. I've heard people say, Oh, I want to ask him about what it was like to betray God or whatever. Like I want to be like, what was it like to walk on water, even if just for a second? What was that like? And then to have Jesus take you by the hand and not say, Well, this is what you get, right? Which sometimes we put that on Jesus because of our own broken families. That he said, Come on out, and you should have kept your eyes on me. That would have been helpful, right? But like he invited him out onto that water. He didn't just say, How dare you ask? Which is a God of incredible fun and delight, also.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. That he recognizes the courage and the bravery, right? The sea is often a depiction of chaos and evil. So for Peter to walk out into that, he was walking into the chaos. And so it's interesting that you even said that you wish you were brave as Peter, because I do see you as being that brave, that God has invited you into these spaces, right? Of chaos and uncertainty and darkness, and like we said, the dirt and you, I see you walking step by step in that.

SPEAKER_00:

Sometimes I think, like everybody else. Yes, but we all do. I think as we really interact with scripture in a non-punitive manner, and I don't think either of us is saying that judgment doesn't occur and there isn't discipline. Right. Those are different matters, and there's so many layers and nuance to scripture, to the gospel, and it's almost impossible in some ways to not. There's just no way to have all that nuance in there because it's so layered and beautiful. But when we look at it primarily as a checklist of things that we have to do or don't do, then we miss out on the relationship. And that is the most important thing. It is for the relationship that Jesus came and died for us. He could have just wiped us out and started over if he wanted to. And that's not what he checked. He said, I want you, want relationship with you, and I'm willing to sacrifice it all so we never have to be apart. That is incredible.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, and we're left here with a purpose and a goal, right? To glorify him. And the way we do that is how we care. We care for each other, that we walk with each other, we encourage each other, all the one another's of scripture, right? Um to me, I think that carrying each other's burdens, which is again physical, spiritual, and emotional, isn't just an intellectual exercise. That is what God asks us to do because that's what sanctifies us. That is what's preparing us for heaven.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, you know, it says in, I'm pretty sure it's first John. I could be wrong on the address, but it's in one of the Johns, not the Gospel of John, but the other Johns. It's in one of them, first second or third. And it says that they will know that we're gods because of our love for one another. And that is the benchmark.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, this is how we show that we are of Christ, is our love for one another, that we lay down our lives for each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What would you say to the biblical counselor that says, but Jackie, Tabitha, I am showing love by calling this person on the carpet for their sin and showing them where they're sinful. How would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_03:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

It would be a conversation for sure. That I would gently ask this person, do they know and understand the story of the person in front of them? We are also called to have speech seasoned with grace. There is a time that you tell someone hard truth, and here's an area of growth for you, right? Like, I do think it would be important that you consider and you obey this. And that is important. That's an important wall. But have you heard this person's story? Can you, without a doubt, understand their lived experience, what they've gone through, how they got here in this situation, that they know the love of Christ before you seek to admonish them or whip them with the Bible, which we should never whip people with the Bible, ever, ever. But that's what I would say is just that it's so much more than a behavior change, or I want you in harshness. To me, I feel like that's can be very harsh when you're just telling people, okay, you need to do this, this, and this to be right with God. It misses the heart of what God wants to do, the heart work of transformation and trusting him and loving him. And we cannot really obey, we cannot really understand that concept until we know of his love for us, that he cares about what I'm going through, what I went through, how I got here. He cares, he knows.

SPEAKER_00:

There are three counseling adages I live by, generally speaking, with people. The first one is what makes this make sense? What makes this make sense? Because people don't do things without there being a purpose. It might not be the best choice. They may be making a choice based on the skills that they have or the brokenness or the trauma they've been through. But the choice makes sense if you understand it. And you can help people make different choices. The other question I like to ask is what makes you you? What makes you you, this unique person in front of me? There may be things I understand, there may be similarities from my own story, but you're not me. And you're not the last person I sat in front of. What makes you you? And then the other piece is who do you want to become? Who do you want to become? What is the kind of person that you hope to be? Because most people do not come out of the womb thinking, I would really like to be wicked. This sounds like a lot of fun. But they come out with all of these hopes, wanting belonging, wanting all of the things that image bearers of God want. And there are circumstances that happen that make it harder to be that person. And so when they're sitting in front of us, I want to know who do they want to be? It's very much like when Jesus asked the person, Do you want to be well? And it wasn't an ugly remark, it wasn't confrontational, it was invitational. And the person said, Yes. And that is the essence of it. Who do you want to be? Do you want to be a good mother, a good sister, a good father, a good brother? Do you want to be someone that someone calls good? What does that look like? And understanding their world. One of the things I think about often is understanding precedes change. I cannot help you change if I do not know who you are. And I can't come in with take two verses and call me in the morning in some theological framework that's just gonna be slapped upon everybody in the same exact way and be meeting the unique person in front of me well.

SPEAKER_02:

That makes me think about the people who come into counseling with us, right? They're not hard-hearted. If they were, they wouldn't come to counseling. They'd be like, I'm doing it my way, you know, James Ford, I want what I want when I want it. And most of the people that come in are looking for a chance to be someone they want to be. Yeah, they don't know how to get there. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I will say there's you to hear me and see me, right? Right. There's one exception that is potentially destructive men or destructive people in general. Yes. That might be a little bit different. We're not talking about them in this moment. That's a whole other podcast. But generally speaking, truly, when people come sit in front of us, they are saying, I've tried everything and I don't know what to do next. Can you help me? Can you see something I don't see? Yeah. You said that you wish that biblical counselors had more education, particularly in whole person care, a holistic model. I know that's something that we offer people and that you can offer people as a biblical counselor supervisor as well. What would you say? If I'm a Sally biblical counselor and I'm hearing this, I'm going, whoa, there are some things I don't know. There's some things in my training that were great, but areas I definitely want to expand on. They're having those moments like you did with a client who has a panic attack and doesn't know what to do. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say consider where to get more training, you know, and if they want to talk to us of the journey in the process, I know we're more than willing to help guide them towards resources that could be helpful. I would say pray about it and think about the cases that you're seeing, the people you're seeing, and reach out for more training. Again, I think of the resources that the journey in the process has that just of knowing where good care is, of taking the time to find all of that. I would agree.

SPEAKER_00:

I would definitely agree. I would agree that we are definitely happy to help and put groups together of biblical counselors that want to learn more about holistic person care and how to enter in differently than maybe they've been taught in the past. And I'd also say that it's not a bad thing to admit you don't know things. I think sometimes, especially when scripture is sufficient, has been drilled into your head without the other part of it doesn't mean it's completely exhaustive for literally everything on earth. That you can feel like I'm supposed to know, I should, and you should on yourself. And then you feel stuck, and then you just try harder and you double down on things that don't work, and then you feel like you're frustrated in your practice with others. And that's really hard. And you don't have to stay there, you don't have to be in that place. And we should all be lifelong learners. I think we have the benefit of doing abuse work, which I say that as if it's the most normal thing on the planet because to us it is. That's just what it is a lot of. But if you've seen one case of abuse, you've seen one case of abuse. So I think we are aware just because of the nature of deep trauma work that we do with people, that we need to be lifelong learners, that we need to operate in teams, we need to consult with others about cases in healthy and confidentiality-honoring ways, so that we are always looking at it with our best set of eyes and always seeking wisdom from the Lord in what we do. Because I think we are aware in some ways, maybe differently than others, of how high the stakes are for us. And so I would just encourage all of the folks listening who are counselors, whether you're a licensed counselor or a biblical counselor, to know that it is always wise to get consultation and to know that you don't know it all and you don't have to know it all. That is where consultation comes in so clutch. That is where you're asking God for wisdom comes in so clutch is Lord, bring me to the resources that can help me understand this thing a little bit better or a little bit more deeply. Or are there places in my own story that this is stepping on? And now there's like a whole lot of feelings here. The clinical word is counter-transference, that I need to deal with my stuff so I can help you deal with yours because I should not be counter-transferring my stuff onto you. That does not help. And so that knowing that sometimes we all need a little support is just wisdom. It's just wisdom and necessary. I am gonna pivot us just a hair because I want to know what it is like for you, because we brought you into a practice full of licensed therapists, which was very intentional on my part. I really thought it was wise. You know, I look out at the landscape. I don't do siloing, I find it obnoxious personally. We are all going to live in heaven together and we should all get along. That is my premise of most of life, to be honest. And I do believe that people will know us by our love for one another. And so I intend to love well and big. And so I love biblical counseling and coaching and whatnot. And the ones that are good and do not suck, like Jackie. So I remember praying about, I really think we need to add this to the practice. I think there is such beauty there, and just asking the Lord to show me who and it was like immediate. He was like, Jackie. And I was like, Well, yes. And it took about a year, it took a while for us to bring you on because you had to work through it. I had to work through it. The Lord had to make all the pieces fall in place correctly. But what was it like for you as a biblical counselor joining a practice full of licensed counselors? Scary, super scary.

SPEAKER_02:

And an act of faith. So it was exciting and scary. This was something I don't know that anybody else. I don't know of anybody who's had this kind of partnership that we have. I was excited to learn. I am still excited to learn. I am a lifelong learner, but this is scary. I felt like to some degree, am I crossing the Rubicon? Am I going into a land of compromise? Am I going into the land that I cannot return? Is this harmful to the people I serve and want to minister to? Is this a lack of trust, a faith in God? And what God has shown me, and I did a lot of praying as well, moving into this space with you, is God has really blown my mind with his care. And I was worried I wouldn't be able to minister in the same way. And not only do I feel I feel like I can minister in the same way because you graciously like, well, you're a biblical counselor. You can counsel biblically, it's okay. This is who you are. But I recognize the reach I have been honored to have with other people who are hurting who are on the fringe of church, who maybe have felt like they couldn't go back to church. I've ministered to women who and still do, women who are part of cults and twisted scripture. There's so much of the church out there that needs help. And so by joining with you, I feel in the world of licensed counseling and becoming more skilled, it allows people to feel like I'm safe enough to come too. And I know that that might sound strange to my biblical counseling friends, but what that means is they want God, they want biblical counseling, they want their spiritual life restored and reconnected. They want to ask hard questions and they want to be able to wrestle with this, with someone who has strong faith. I've been through a similar journey with God and they feel okay about coming to me because I am trauma-informed and I have these skills. So I'm not gonna let them jump off a cliff or feel like, you know, emotionally harm them. They're so careful because so much scripture has been used against them and they're coming to me saying, Can you help me work through this? And so to me, it has been a tremendous opportunity to actually be the body of Christ to those who are on the fringe.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I definitely get that sense. And I know the risk it was for both of us to enter into this place and to bring you into the practice because I know for a lot of our survivors that we work with, they have been deeply harmed by the church. And they have been deeply harmed in some cases by biblical counselors. So that I would align myself with any of the biblical counseling movement, I think sometimes can feel a little bit scary. But that's also why I literally refer to you as the biblical counselor that does not suck on purpose because it is important, I think, that people have the tools that they need. They have the person that they need, right? There are people that are going to need someone who is a biblical counselor to walk with them because that is important to them. There are elements of that that they want. And there are people that need licensed counselors that can do things like EMDR or somatic experiencing or internal family systems work or whatever, whatever it is that we need to do. And together we can actually provide more of that whole person care than we can by ourselves. And I think that is such a gift and one that I would hope that other biblical and licensed counselors would look at together and say, there is an aspect here that we can really be such a good team. And I've partnered with other biblical counselors that also do not suck with cases and things like that. And I have seen it benefit our clients so much, where they're getting the biblical piece, some discipleship, untwisting those scriptures and also getting the deep trauma care that they need from the reprocessing spaces and some of those things that I can do as a licensed clinician, or I can go to court with them, or things like that that they need. And also they need that deep discipleship and the biblical piece of it, and they want to wrestle through their faith. And they want someone who's not take two verses and call me in the morning. And so it is to some on the outside risky, but has been the biggest gift for the last year and has been something I have seen not only grow me, grow you, but also grow the rest of our team in leaning into how do we take this holistic approach and really bring life and goodness and God's love to the church so that people can be healthy and be in the context that God has them in, right? God has a plan for all of us, right? It's what he says. And so when we can be our healthiest selves and we can heal and then we get to go and be amazing. And not only are we amazing, but then our families are amazing, right? It's a ripple effect because when one person changes, they change their own system and then their system gets healthier, and that changes the lives of their children. Like, I don't think we can underestimate how really caring well for others impacts the world as a whole in healthy, beautiful ways.

SPEAKER_02:

It does. I've heard so many stories of how women are interacting differently with their families and their children, and they're just on fire for the Lord again, and in their communities and stepping back into church. Some of them are stepping back into church. It depends on you know where they're at, and if they have a church that feels supportive and safe. The church does need to be the safest place on earth, as Chris Mules would say.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I believe that's the way Jesus intended it, to be honest. Yeah. And I will also say, I have seen when a destructive man truly starts to repent, having good care around all of the parties involved is vital. And there are some cases I am thinking about, there have been several, where we will have an excellent counselor for the perpetrator. We'll have accountability for the perpetrator in the form of like a men of peace group, and then an excellent counselor for the victim and an excellent advocate for the victim. And all of those things together, very often, this is a combination of biblical counselors and licensed counselors working together. That's where I've seen it work. And you see things change, even if their relationship isn't salvageable because too much damage has been done. We see people change and repent and families impacted in beautiful ways. And that to me, if you can get out of the shade of some of the slinging that happens in some of the mudslinging in some of the biblical counseling circles, and go, what do we actually see that looks like Jesus? That's it. That's it to me. And so I don't care if you like where EMDR might have come from. I can tell you it's effective. I can tell you it works. I can tell you it's neuroscience. And yeah, the mudslinging of all biblical counselors are just sucky and they don't know anything about trauma and go, well, I actually know a few that know some really good stuff. I hired one of them, you know, and she's very trauma-informed and she doesn't spiritually bypass people. And if we look at it through the eyes of Christ, what might it look like in the church if we actually walked in love with one another?

SPEAKER_02:

That is so powerful, even hearing you say that. What could it look like?

SPEAKER_00:

I think there could only be goodness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That's what I want. That's what I think you and I both want is to be the church. We want to work together, be whole healed as the body of Christ, work together. Absolutely. And appreciate each other, right? Appreciate what each of us can bring. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

They know that we are gods by the way that we love one another.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think I hope that that's what hallmarks my life and yours, you know, is we loved well, we cared well, we weren't afraid to go into the dark places with people in the context that God has us in. Because we all have, and there's a need for all of us. There's never gonna until Jesus comes back, there's not going to be a lack of people that need support and care, right? And if we were all to be a team in how do we love well, how do we help people heal well? How do we evidence God's love to them well, we might see a lot more health in the church as a whole, and a lot more people do less destructive things.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's what we're called to do. That's what we're called to do. Yeah. Would you mind if I shared something out of Ezekiel that I was reading this morning that encouraged me? Would you mind? Love it. Do it.

SPEAKER_00:

If a biblical counselor doesn't read the Bible, like is that even a thing?

SPEAKER_02:

It it is, it shouldn't be. This really struck me, Ezekiel 34. It's the word of the Lord to the shepherds of Israel. Now, I know I'm not a shepherd of Israel, but as leaders, as people helpers in the church, people look to us. This is God's word to the leaders, and this is something I take very seriously. It says, the weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the injured you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. I don't even know if I can say it without a tear in my eye. That I want to be the opposite of that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That is physical, emotional, and spiritual healing. And the straight you have not brought back. I want to be a counselor. And I think all biblical counselors would want that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's not brought back into subjection or the church, it's brought back to relationship with the true and living God who it doesn't want you wandering out in desolate spaces by yourself because you were created for community. And so it's not that a biblical counselor, a good one, would want to bring someone back into a broken system. It's that they want to bring them back and return them to health and to safety and to the pasture of the shepherd. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think about bringing them back to the shepherd, right? Yeah. Yeah. The Psalm 23rd Shepherd. Yeah. Yeah. Who is safe and kind and compassionate and faithful.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, Jackie, it has been so much fun to chat with you about these things and about biblical counseling. And we will have how to contact you in the description for this episode. And also, if you are a biblical counselor out there listening and you're like, yeah, I want to learn whatever she knows. Like, I want to learn that stuff. We truly are happy to train. That is part of what we do. We want folks to be their best counseling selves. I know I say this often to interns, to counselors that I train. I know Jackie would echo it, although she'd say it probably a little bit differently, but life is too short for crappy counseling. And so if you want to make sure that you are an excellent counselor, we would be happy to walk with you in that and help you be the best biblical counselor that you can be, the best licensed counselor that you can be, and to take that holistic, whole person approach to walking with others. And that you would be able to say, they know that I'm his, by the way, that I love, without question. Well, thank you for joining us on this week's episode. Been so good to have you here. And we will see you guys next time on Hey Tabby. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to Tabitha Westbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I-S-E- and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.

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