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Hey Tabi!
Welcome to "Hey Tabi!" the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud, with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here & we are not "take-two-verses-and-call-me-in-the-morning."
I'm Tabitha Westbrook & I'm a licensed trauma therapist (but I'm not your trauma therapist). I'm an expert in domestic abuse & coercive control & how complex trauma impacts our health & well-being. Our focus here is knowledge & healing - trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope! Now, let's get going!
How to connect:
https://www.tabithawestbrook.com/
Therapy Website: (We are able to see clients in NC & TX)
https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/
Instagram:
@tabithathecounselor
@_tjatp
Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy & is for informational purposes only. If you need therapy I encourage you to find an awesome therapist licensed where you are that can help you out!!
Hey Tabi!
Parenting Spicy Kids - How to Stay Calm When You're Told To "F Off"
Parenting a “spicy” teen? You’re not alone. In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with Dr. Greg Wilson, LPC-S and author of When Home Hurts, to talk about raising adolescents through trauma, grief, and chaos, without losing your mind (or your compassion).
Together they unpack:
💥 Why your “ghost pepper” teen’s outbursts might actually be pain in disguise
💥 How trauma, from loss, abuse, or today’s chaotic world, shapes behavior
💥 Practical tools for parents to stay calm, connected, and regulated when kids explode
💥 How to hold firm boundaries and lead with empathy
💥 What to do when you’ve “done everything right” and your child is still struggling
💥 Why curiosity, community, and faith matter more than control
Whether you’re navigating grief, abuse recovery, or the rollercoaster of adolescence, this conversation offers hope, humor, and hard-earned wisdom.
Timestamps:
00:00 – Intro & Greg’s story of loss and calling
04:00 – Why kids today are more anxious and traumatized
07:00 – Balancing compassion with healthy boundaries
12:00 – Parenting ghost pepper-level teens
18:00 – How to stay regulated when your child isn’t
24:00 – Grieving the “what should have been” as a parent
36:00 – Repairing when you’ve messed up
45:00 – When faith feels shaken in parenting
54:00 – Finding safe community & not parenting alone
Resources Mentioned:
Greg's Practice - https://w
At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/
This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?
You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V
🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.
Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi
📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com
💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there
👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!
🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.
Need to know...
Welcome to Hey Tally, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual list. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how to intersect with a Christian phase. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not deep divorced in calming in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, and I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and wealth. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to be a lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. I am super stoked to be here with a very good friend and colleague, and I am going to introduce him to you on the off chance that you don't know who this man is. So I am here with Dr. Greg Wilson. He is an LPC supervisor in Texas. He has been married to Christy for 27 years and they have an adult daughter named Sarah. And he also owns and leads Soul Care Associates, which is a counseling practice and consulting practice in Flower Mound, Texas. And Greg, I am so stoked to have you here with us today.
SPEAKER_01:I'm excited too. I love this. This is like long overdue. I just wish that you and I could have actually more like in-person conversations that aren't at conferences or things like that. Like we live, well, I live full time in an area, right? In an area where you live halftime or something like that. But like at least half the time, like we're in the same area, but we're both so busy. So here we are having a conversation on Zoom for all the folks out there. But I'm just glad that anytime I get to have a conversation with you, it's a delight. So I'm glad to be here.
SPEAKER_03:Same here. I'm really excited. And we're going to talk about today something that I get asked about a ton. And I know Greg gets asked about a ton, and that is parenting adolescents when there's trauma in the picture. And if I'm being real, that is parenting every adolescent known to mankind for the most part. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So, I mean, my own story, which I don't even know if you know this, Tabby, but like my dad died when I was 12. Any passing of a parental figure when you're a child is traumatic. But he had heart issues. This is back in the day when they didn't really know all the things that they do know these days. This was a long time ago. He died in 1975. I'm an old guy. But that was for me, that was a very significant, as you can imagine, time in my life. Kind of everybody else knew because I was the youngest. So, like my older brother, who's 10 years older than me, and all the other family who were all older than me, everybody knew that like he was like one more heart attack away from the end of his life. It's just, you know, it was just his heart had had a lot. And I knew that he had been in the hospital a few times, you know, but I didn't know that. I didn't know that like we were like at that place. And so it was just devastating for a boy, you know, going from transitioning from sixth grade to seventh grade. Back then we didn't have middle school. So that was also the transition from elementary school to junior high school for me. And like there was just a lot going on. And so I think that's part of where my heart for adolescents and the young people, if I can use that kind of old person way of describing adolescence. I think that's where my heart for that particular age group has come from. And then for a while I was a youth pastor in my pastoral ministry before I was a senior pastor. And so I had that. So I always tell people like in some ways, I've been working with teenagers my whole adult life in different ways, ever since I was one, while I was still trying to figure stuff out, you know, and just in just a behind the scenes in terms of like where this desire to work with that population comes from. But I get it, you know. I mean, you had trauma when you were growing up, I had trauma when I was growing up, different kinds of trauma. And so we can see that when you love to use the word spicy a lot when you're talking about, you know, things and and like when parents out there, so I know that there are a lot of trauma survivors and victims and people who work with trauma listening to your show, like when they kind of act like a jerk, when they are disrespectful, all that, it is important, I think, for us to take a look at the person created in the image of God that's underneath that and the vulnerabilities that are there because of the hurts and the traumas and just the anxieties and just all the stuff. Like, even if we're talking about a middle school kid or a high school kid who honestly has not had anything that would be on an ACES score, for example, or something like that, like we still know that it's just hard these days to grow up being a kid and being an adolescent. And then when you throw in like legitimate trauma, domestic abuse, a death, a divorce, whatever the course of control, like whatever the thing is that's going on, then that just magnifies it.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And I think too, you know, when we think about kiddos and trauma these days, just look at the news cycle, right? And, you know, even young kids are experiencing like this vicarious trauma from hearing about all the junk in the world and not knowing what to do with it and training for active shooter drills and all that stuff. Right. And it's parents, right? Like we can go, oh, well, in my generation, we had to get under the desk in case there was a nuclear war, or in my generation, we had to do tornado drills, or we had to get on our knees in a hallway, which honestly I don't know how that protects anybody, but whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Right. You know, and it but here's the thing, and you know this, but let me just highlight this because you're exactly right. So I definitely grew up in the generation where we did the in the Cold War and we did the getting under our desk in case there was a nuclear attack or something like that. But here's the reality: like, yes, there was a concern about a potential nuclear attack. There were not nuclear attacks happening all over the place all the time that you guys turn on the news, oh, another nuclear attack. The kids these days that are having these active shooter drills, like it is I'm not saying that it wasn't, you know, I'm not getting into the politics or the the foreign policy debate about like how likely a nuclear attack was back in our day. I'm just saying that we didn't see them happening all the time. You know, we it was something we were afraid of, but it wasn't like a part of life. Whereas sadly, serial shootings happening in schools is like a fact of life these days. And so when kids are when they're having those drills, it feels a lot more, and you know how the trauma brain works. I don't have to tell you this, but like it certainly feels a lot more like this is like an absolute reality that could actually happen. And they're living with that.
SPEAKER_03:They are they're this is their everyday. And I think that's as parents, a place that we can be more compassionate and say, you're right, there is a hardness. I think there's that balance, right? That as a parent, you want to balance the tension of this is really hard, and how do you build resilient? And I think that might be useful to speak to because we have so many listeners that are in that I am a rent abuse survivor space. And how do they hold the tension of yes, this was really bad? And also, I need you to step up to the plate and have some boundaries and have resilience and not crumble under pressure. So, how would you speak to a parent trying to foster a compassionate space with healthy boundaries and also fostering resilience?
SPEAKER_01:Um, man, I love that. Well, here's what I think. I think that I think about the quote, I'll answer your question, but I think about what Kurt Thompson says that we all come into the world looking for someone looking for us. You know, like that idea that it is important. It is so important for that young adult, that adolescent, that person, even if they're a grown adult, it's important for all of us to be seen, to be known, to have someone who sees us as an individual created the image of God, and who calls out the ways that they see us bearing the image of God in our lives. And so I think those key attachment figures, you know, mom, dad, if both are in the picture, or if not, then whichever one is in the picture. But being able to be present and be and stay regulated, right? Because as we all know, a dysregulated adult is not going to help a dysregulated teenager or child become more regulated, right? And so like it's so important that we be able to stay regulated as hard as it is. And again, we're sitting here talking, you have a young adult child, I have a young adult child. We have been through these years, at least somewhat, we're still some ways going through them. But the reality is it is hard. And I would not ever want to present that this isn't going to be a hard time or a challenging time. It is. Even if your kid speaking to the person who maybe mom and son or mom and daughter have gone through a trauma together, which I know could be a lot of people in your audience, you know what this kid has gone through, and he or she has gone through a lot. And you also know that it is normative in this season for them to be asking questions, for them to be challenging norms and rules and society and pushing back against authority and all those things. And we certainly know you and I could talk forever about just the particular situation of someone who has grown up in a coercively controlling home, and now maybe they've gotten out of that or whatever. But again, you take the normal teenage desire to push back against authority, and then you throw on top of that that they have seen bad authority lived out in their lives, um, and maybe are still seeing it lived out in their lives. And that is a recipe for like this kid's just gonna have a hard time. And so I think recognizing my child is going to have a hard time, that's a reality. It's hard to be a teenager, it's hard to be a survivor, it's doubly hard to be a teenager who is also a survivor. Uh, and being present, being there for them, not you and I were having a little pregame conversation before we hit record on this. Like, yes, having boundaries and also being present for them and enjoying them and having fun with them. I have a little kernel of a book idea, Tabby, that at some point maybe you'll see come to fruition. It's not, there's not even a publisher, like, there's not a whole lot of words on paper right now, just a bunch of notes. So that's where it is in the process. You understand what that process is like. But it's on the idea of I'm always wanting parent and caregivers, because sometimes this also includes grandparents and other significant others, mentors in the church or in the community in this young person's life. I'm always wanting them to understand what I think is so important about just enjoying them, the enjoyment of them. Like that they know that mom, dad, youth leader, friend, teacher, coach, whoever this person is, band director, that this person sees them as a person and actually enjoys them and actually kind of lights up when they show up, when they walk in the room and gives them a smile and gives them a hug if they are okay with hugs and all those kinds of things. And knows if they're not okay with hugs, right? Like knows them well enough to like know I understand you don't want to hug, but I just want to give you a high five or whatever and let you know that I see you, right? We can get more into specifics, but is it too broad for me to just say that like I think that's the thing ultimately that they need more than anything else?
SPEAKER_03:I think that's so wise, actually. Here's the question I can hear all the mamas, especially because I've never been a dad, but I've been a mama and I've worked with a lot of mamas, go, but Greg, how? Like when the kid is at spice level ghost pepper, how do I do that when it seems like I can just be present in a room and they're like, F you, mom, you know, f you, dad? What do we do with that? How do we delight in our children? Because I agree with you. And it reminds me of the scripture, God's kindness leads us to repentance, right? That's right. It's not his disdain for us.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:So, what is it that we do as parents to bring a little bit of what we see God doing while we're saying, hey, you know, I hear that there's some spice in there, but we can't be telling me to F off. What do we do? What do we do with all that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, that's so typical. And you're right. So I encourage parents in curiosity. I encourage, I think you've heard me talk about this too in trainings that we've done together. I encourage counselors to be more curious. I think we all need to be more curious. But in that particular situation, I would say if you can find like what is the thing that I can be curious about in this scenario, like what is this? So I think, and I know you agree with me, I think all behavior is purposeful. So when your kid is being ghost pepper level spicy, they are telling you something about themselves. And if you can try to not be reactive in that moment, which again requires regulating yourself, maybe saying, hey, you're gonna have to go to your room right now. I want to have a conversation with you. There's so much I want to like figure out about what's going on here right now. But right now, mom needs a little mom time. I need to take a walk. I need to maybe even just sleep. So maybe if it's the end of the day, it's like, we're gonna talk about this tomorrow. We're not gonna talk about this tonight. So I'm tired. I need to just like get some sleep, and you need to as well. And you may be up till three or four in the morning. I don't know what you're gonna do, but I'm going to bed and I would encourage you to at a reasonable time. And tomorrow we'll have a different conversation. I mentioned to you before, I hope this is okay, but I mentioned to you before when we were talking earlier. I just read a book by a trauma therapist that we both know. The therapist's name, he's actually a psychiatrist, but he does a lot of trauma work. His name is Frank Anderson, and he's not a believer, but he just wrote a memoir. What stood out to me is that he tells a story about his oldest son going through just a really totally an FU kind of phase of like, I don't like you, I don't want to be around you. Every time he was in the room, he like kind of gave him a glare that the glare basically said, I don't like you. In fact, maybe I hate you right now. And they dealt with that for a while, and he dealt with it in all the usual, even though he's a psychiatrist and a counselor, like he dealt with it in all the ways that all the typical normal human ways that we as parents do, even if we do the kind of work that you and I do, he yelled at him and he grounded him and he told him he and every right to talk to him that way, and like all those kinds of things. And then one day, I mean, I really got choked up when I was reading it. I might get choked up now telling the story. But one day his son just comes out and just randomly gives him a hug. Like just comes and just randomly hugs him. He says, Dad, I just needed a hug. I love you. I know I've been a jerk. He used a stronger word, but that's the word we'll stick with here. And he said, You know, I'm just I'm going through some stuff. And that again, I see in my practice, because I do see a lot of adolescents. I do see a lot of adolescents that have gone through trauma of one kind or another. And I do hear that a lot from the teenagers that I see. Now, you know, as counselors, you know, because you've also raised a kid, but then you've been a counselor, you've been in the counseling room with a lot of adolescents. Same with me. And so, like, we hear sometimes in the counseling room the things that we really wish we could hear from our own kid in those moments. And the thing that that kid would tell their parents, right? But we get to hear those things because of that experience. I just want to say to that parent who's getting the FU. Number one, I've been the kid who was giving the FU, sadly. So again, when my dad died when I was 12, I went through a really hard time in my adolescent years. And I was the kid saying F you, and I was the kid pushing away and giving the Heisman, and I was the kid saying, No, I don't. Thank you, Mr. Youth Pastor, for reaching out to me. I appreciate that. I have zero interest in going to your church or your youth group or your camp or your retreat or whatever right now. And so having been that kid, and then having over the years, I'm 62, over the pretty much all the years that I've been an adult since then, counseling and being in spaces with kids like that. I can just virtually assure you, mom, dad, if you're listening, caregivers who are listening, that kid is going through some stuff and he's trying to communicate what he is saying to you, sounds has all the earmarks of being about you, right? It would be hard for any human being to think to believe. No, Greg, he's actually he hates me clearly. Like he used the words I hate you. You know, all of his behavior demonstrates that. And what I would gently, kindly, with compassion and all that stuff, because again, I get it, it's a hard season. I'm not trying to say I know it all at all in these situations because I number one, I don't, and number two, every situation truly is different. But my strong hunch is that your kid is trying to tell you something. And they're not trying to tell you I hate you. They're not trying to tell you you're a terrible parent. There's a subtext underneath what they're actually saying that you've got to like learn how to read. It was much easier to read when they were a compliant 10-year-old. I get it. It was much easier to read. It was, I was, as I mean, just speaking from my own life, like when I was 14, I was being a jerk to my mom, who had just lost her husband as well, just a couple of years before. I was much easier to raise and talk to and deal with and discipline when I was, you know, 9, 10, 11 years old. What was it that Mark Twain said about the teenage years? Just kind of put them in a barrel with a plug or something, plug it up or whatever. If we don't get to do that, like, you know, this person's still in your life. You got to figure out a way to kindly, compassionately, lovingly live with that young person in a way that is safe for you and safe and healthy for them. And so it is absolutely okay. Please don't hear this counselor saying, you know, so just don't have any boundaries. And like, I mean, we already know that that population that you and I are talking to, I've had a lot of clients in that population. You've had a lot of clients in that population. Like, we already know that like boundaries is in some ways like a new idea. And being able to exercise agency around some of these things is like something that is new. I'm trying to figure out in every other area of my life as well. And then I'm given the bad news here that you're also gonna have to like figure that out with your kid in real time. Let them know. Let's say it is a mom and a son who have, you know, dad was abusive and he's left, or a mom and a daughter. It's like, hey, we're gonna have to figure this out together. And I love you, but like the way you're talking to me right now is not okay. So there's gonna be a consequence for the way you're talking to me, whatever that is, age appropriate, obviously, consequence for what that is. But at the same time, I love you more than you know, and I am here for you, and I want us to figure this thing out together.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. There are the moms out there that say, But I tried to do everything right. Right. Right? I left my abuser, I did this thing, I've prayed over my child, I modeled Jesus in my house. I wasn't perfect. And why am I here?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I will just say, you cannot control what your children do.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:You know, you can set the best limits and boundaries. And at the end of the day, this is an autonomous human being who around the age of 17 suddenly thinks I know all the things.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And they're like, I'm about to be 18, I'm just gonna go do all the things. And we know their brain isn't fully developed yet.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and parents can know not even until they're 25 or 26 years old, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right. They they do not have all the pieces wired up.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:For so many parents, you can say, but I know all this. Why am I still struggling? Why are we still here? I did all the right things, and I think then that becomes sometimes a bit of an existential crisis for the parent or caregiver with God.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it's so hard because again, we apply that to every area of our life, not just the parenting, right? So someone who's listening may also be saying, I did all the right things with my marriage. Like I tried to love him the way I was supposed to love him. I showed up, I did probably even more things than I should have done to try to bend to what he wanted me to be. Like I tried all the things I've been trying so, so hard. And now maybe I'm still in that, or maybe I've gotten out of that relationship, but now it's showing up with my kid. Someone, please help. Where are you, God, in that moment? And I mean, you and I have both been in that room. We've both been in that space many, many times. It's like, sister, brother, listener, all I'm gonna say is that God is there and he loves you, and that it's never been about all the things that you did or didn't do, and it's not about all the things that you did or didn't do right now. That's not the gospel that we believe. And so, yes, I get, I feel like I've done all the things. I went to my counselor, and my counselor told me all these things, and I've checked them all off. I've done them all very dutifully because I want things to be better. And like you said a minute ago, Tabby, it's like you don't get to control how this teenager turns out. Which again, for a lot of our listeners right here, it's like, I hope that that can be a little bit of a breath of fresh air in the sense that it's possible that you've been in a controlling, coercive, manipulative, destructive relationship for a long period of time where someone else thought that they could control your behavior by, you know, doing certain things or whatever. And now, and please hear me, listener, I'm not accusing you of doing the same thing. I'm saying that to want to control outcomes is human and natural. But what you want to do is you want to receive, like, oh, you know, I didn't want to be controlled by this person. And ultimately, this person was not able to control me. Like, I was able to make my own decisions. And guess what? That also applies to my 13, 14, 17, 18, whatever year old child, 23, 22, yes, year old kid as well. And so it's like, so receive that. And I think that if you're able to receive that, again, I know it's hard, if you're able to receive that, because all parents want their kids to like turn out amazing and making great choices and all those things. But I think if most of us listeners, I know Tabby and I would agree. I already know her well enough to know that she would agree with this. But listeners, like if you can think back to when you were that age or when you were in that space, you weren't making all the right, you weren't killing it, probably either, you know. And so to be able to look back and go, okay, all right, I get it. Like they're growing up, like we just alluded to, their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed. Honestly, even after it is, like, even if you have older adult kids that are in their late 20s and early 30s, I'm 62. So, you know, I look back at life and I go, man, you know, 32, 35, 42, 45 55. There are so many decisions I want back again, but I don't get them back again. But what I do is I get to learn from them, you know. So Lord's not going to necessarily give me back those years. I know that that's a promise in Joel 2 that he'll restore the years that the locusts have destroyed. And I think we can claim that promise in certain ways. The Lord has for sure redeemed a lot of things from my teens and twenties and thirties and forties and fifties. A lot. But one thing that that promise does not include is that I actually get to go back and live again the years that the locusts destroyed. I don't get that. You know, like I'm gonna those years are they're clocked, they're in the journal, they've happened, they're in the rearview mirror. And now the question is like, what am I gonna learn from those years moving forward?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I think another thing I would just encourage folks, this is something we don't talk about in the church nearly as much as we should, honestly.
SPEAKER_02:I agree.
SPEAKER_03:And I think I will never forget being at an encounter service at our church, which is like a prayer and worship service. And for those who don't know, Greg and I go to the same church. And we never see each other there, but we do go to the same church.
SPEAKER_00:It's a big church. Yes, it's a very big church.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but I just remember this mom knowing I was safe enough to tell because we've had our own trauma story and that stuff in my family. And I think I exude the you can tell me your stuff vibe, which is how I became a therapist, right? And this mom was just pouring out and she's I don't even know who I could be real with at the church. And I think that is a far more often sentiment than we realize that it the way that we describe it in our practice is we call it the spicy parents group. And we want to advertise we're actually going to start a group for parents of spicy children, but we calling it the spicy parent group could maybe misunderstand what we are talking about. Right. But there are kiddos who are struggling deeply. And it doesn't matter your socioeconomic status. You and I both know that abuse is an equal opportunity harmer. It doesn't matter your race, religion, socioeconomic status, abuse is wickedness and it affects so many people, no matter who you are. And so we have kids across strata who are struggling and parents in the church who feel alone. And I just want to encourage you as a therapist who sits with these families, as a mom who has been in this family, that there are others out there. And getting some support and encouragement from safe people is really important, especially if you're coming out of your own traumatic story, whether that's abuse, whether that's death, whether that's anything, right? Because we have natural disasters that have taken place that affect families deeply. I've worked with families where, you know, maybe there was a tragic car accident and one of the children was killed, and then the rest of the family is reeling from how do we deal with this, right? So there's a million different ways to be traumatized as a family. And how do we find when our kiddos are struggling? How do we find the people around us that are safe people that can help lift us up when we're like, I just need to stick my face in the dirt and I don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. And so you need, as a parent, you need that community of safe people that you can go to and say, I'm about to either pull all my hair out or pull all of his hair out, or do even something worse. You know, like whatever. If you're just in that place, you need to have those people around you who can say, I see you, I've been there, you're gonna get through this. And then I would also say that your teenager needs those people too, besides you. They need someone. And we're both believers, like you said, we go to church together. But what I would say is if you're not finding that in the church, find it somewhere else. Find it in the activities that they're in school. I was a band kid growing up, and the band hall was always a very safe place for me. Like I had my people there. And so, like, that was a safe place for me when I wasn't going to church, when I was pushing back against all that. I knew that there were people who cared about me and who saw me there. For some people, that maybe they're theater kids. So it's going to be that group. Maybe there are. And I get that, like you also as a parent, you might be saying, Hey, I don't know if I love all the things that this group of people or that these friends are doing or taking part in, or whatever. And I understand that. I see that. I guess what I'm Saying is number one, being aware about what's going on. So being involved in your kid's life and knowing the things that other people are telling them. Again, I know that that's much easier. You have one kid, Debbie. I have one kid. It's been much easier for us in that respect. I've got lots of clients who have four or five kids. They're like, I can't be at everything. You know, like and I'm still recovering from my own trauma and all that as well. I get that. In some of those spaces, you may just have to trust the sovereignty of God, that God sees and knows your kid, and He's going to put you around people that are going to be safe and helpful for them at this particular season of life. There may have to be some things that you reteach. There may have to be some things when they come home and talk about things that they've learned or seen. You have to say, hey, we don't do those things here in this house, or we don't talk that way in this house, or whatever that is. But again, like letting them find their safe people and their safe places is really important. They need that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. And it is hard, right? Again, kids do not come out with owner's manual when you birth themselves. That's right. And if you've adopted them, even if you adopted them as a baby, there is inherent trauma because we don't get to adopt Shinn or Foster if things have gone great for your birth family.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Right.
SPEAKER_03:So there is that inherent peace that we are going to have to deal with. And we're not going to do it perfectly. And I think a lot about Adam Young, who is a therapist, a lot of people know about. He has a podcast called The Place We Find Ourselves. He talks about repairs. And I think that is one of the most profound things. And if you grew up in a household where nobody ever said they were sorry. And this I hear a lot from like people of my generation and elder millennials and whatnot. So I'm solidly Gen X, everyone here knows that. But you know, what we hear a lot is my parents never apologized. You know, they were always right. And I think that is a lean in of like, hey, I'm sorry. And if you are coming out of a coercively controlling relationship, those words to someone who feels like the abuser, even though they are not your children, are not your abuser. Again, that doesn't mean you don't need boundaries and things like that, and that you should just accept anything. But when it feels the same to our bodies, it can be very scary to say I'm sorry because it was scary to say I'm sorry to your abuser because they weaponized it. And I think as parents, it's a space or caregivers, it's a space to lean into that's really important, even if you don't see immediate fruit. And I think this is the other thing. This is a long game. And it is so stinking hard as a parent to go, I don't know what's going to happen in 20 or 30 years. What if they never calm down? What if they never make right choices? What if they never turn to the Lord? What if they hate me? What if they are alienated from me? And man, as a parent, there's so much grief with all of that and grief of the things that you didn't get to do, you know, or that you missed out on. I know plenty of parents who've had to put kiddos in treatment facilities for their own good, for their own health. And no one prepares you for this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No one prepares you for not having a traditional high school graduation or moving your child into college or going to prom, right? Like we have all of these things that we as parents, when we give birth, or if we adopt a child, if we foster a child, we have all of these dreams for them because of course we do.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:That's a beautiful thing. And when those dreams don't happen, that can feel devastating. And it can also feel shameful. And I've worked with so many families who are like, I feel like I am the one with the problem because we didn't get to do all these things, and all these families around us are being normal, what we call normal in the United States, and I'm not.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So, how would you speak into the grief of the what I didn't get because of where we are?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's so good. I think what's important is to remind yourself that you did the best that you could, you did the best that you were able to with what you had. And that at the end of the day, you have to recognize that that at the end of the day, that isn't that doesn't promise a particular result. And that we grieve out of our love for the other person. We grieve because we love, right? We grieve because we love deeply. And so to be able to say, I love this person deeply, I've had to make some hard choices because they made some bad choices. And I have to recognize that I did the best that I could with the situation that I was in, and that I'm not going to be perfect, and neither are they. And that God is a God of redemption, and that sometimes over time he turns those things back around. I mean, at the end of my mom's life, she actually lived here. In fact, this room that I'm in right now was actually one of her rooms. She had this room, which was a bedroom that she turned into a like a sitting room, and then on the other side of that wall back there was her bedroom. She actually lived with us the last several years of her life. And I was able to minister to her and love her for many, many, many years after my traumatic teenage years. But I treated her tabby terrible when I was a teenager, just terrible. I was it's just embarrassing for me to even think about it sometimes, some of the things that I did and said, and she had to make some hard choices and and she did, and I'm glad that she did. And at the end of the day, in at least in my story, it worked out. Now, again, I hear what you're thinking, which is and what some of our listeners are thinking, which is I don't know if it's gonna work out in my story. And you know, I don't either, listener. I wish I could tell you that for sure. What I can tell you is that if you will show up and be boundaried and expect respect and give respect. You deserve respect, and I deserve respect. And so, like, we're going to give and receive respect mutually in this relationship. If we can't do that, there's going to be some consequences, then that's probably the best you can do in that situation.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:And do you have any other thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03:It's a hard road, right? Like there's not a right answer, there's a right method, right? And when I say right method, it is knowing your own physiology and knowing what's going on for you. Because that is a place you can start, is what is happening in me when my kid does XYZ, whatever that is, and why. And being curious about that for your own self and not from a pejorative or diminishing or judgmental, shameful standpoint, right? I it's what is happening in me that is causing this big reaction.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And for families, I'll just say if your kid is extra spicy, if they are ghost pepper, you're not going to be happy no matter how calm you learn to be. That's right. It's never not going to be sad. And I think sometimes and par. Yes. And I think sometimes therapists accidentally communicate that you will suddenly not have big emotions that you have to reckon with. That's not true. Emotions are very telling and they're very helpful. And they also sometimes are very uncomfortable. But it's understanding, like, oh, what's happening in me when this is happening with my child? What care and kindness and areas do I need to work on and grow? And then even if your kid is still being spicy, it doesn't mean you won't be sad. You're gonna be sad. You're gonna have the grief. You know, all trauma work is grief work, is one of my favorite phrases of all time.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. It is.
SPEAKER_03:And so we lean in and we know that I'll never feel some sort of perfect, floaty. I don't know, I don't know what we expect sometimes, but it is not that.
SPEAKER_01:Right, exactly. Yeah, I totally agree.
SPEAKER_03:But it can be good, right? And we can learn to see our kiddos. The way I refer to it a lot of times in the therapy room is context versus content.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Like I can see all the trees. There's a lot of trees. Tree, tree, tree, tree, tree, right? Bad behavior, skip to school, telling me all kinds of things, using colorful language I'd rather they didn't. All kinds of stuff. Right. Those are all trees. But what is the forest?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Am I in the forest of despair? Am I in the forest of trauma? Am I in the forest of I don't feel like I belong anywhere, which every teenager does not have to have big T trauma to feel? That is like called trying to live.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, where am I at? And you know, what forest am I seeing and learning to ask that question, again, imperfectly, because we're never not gonna be, we're just not gonna get it right every time.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But what do we do when we go, okay, wonder what this forest is? You know, yes, I'm gonna hold boundaries and no, you're not gonna tell me to F off. That's not gonna work for us.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:You know, but how do I stay 72 degrees and manage my own internal world while I try to figure out what forest I'm staring at? And and spoiler alert, mom, dad, caregivers, um, that forest can change.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Like quickly. I think about one of my favorite tools for couples' work, which and this is one of the funny things that people don't always know about us because you and I tend to talk about abuse, better intervention, coercive control, a lot of that stuff a lot. But both Greg and I work a lot with adolescents and a lot with couples who are not destructive.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and we love that work. We love that work. Please, please come see us. It helps keep us level.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And we love all the work. But one of the things I think about in terms of relationship building is love maps. And we often use them in the context of a romantic relationship, but that is not the only thing. And you really said it earlier. The Kirk Thompson quote, which is a favorite of mine, is yeah, we come into the world looking for someone looking for us. And that is knowing the inner world of this other person you care about. That's right. So, how can you build love maps with your kiddos so that when you have these hard times, when these moments come where you're taking a withdrawal from the I am in a relationship with you bank account, that we have done so much depositing that the withdrawal is not going to have such a big impact.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So we don't want to overdraw our love bank accounts. So, where are the things when things aren't spicy in the good moments? And you might be sitting there going, like, we're not having a lot of those right now. Right. I hear you, but we might have a couple.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Where can we lean in? Again, not losing boundaries. And this is attention that a lot of parents have to figure out what are the right boundaries, what are the right consequences, right? They're so individualized. But how do I, without violating healthy boundaries, lean in toward my kiddo and find something that is going to be a deposit and help me know their inner world a bit more? And sometimes kids get spicy related when they don't feel like you're hearing them.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And look, what's coming out of their mouth may be the most unhinged thing you have ever heard in your life. And you may be like, wow, that is not a well thought through political position, emotional position, position at all. And that's okay. Think about the unhinged, ridiculous things you believed at 16, 17, 18.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And I just I think about some things often. So I used to be very activistic. I am still very much an activist at heart. There is that part of me, right? Like I just do not have any tolerance for injustice at all.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:But when I was 17 years old on my birthday, I was driving to a political party's organizational headquarters in my town to get yard signs. And I got in an accident because my brakes ended up failing. It was I drove a really old car.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I remember my parents being so angry, like, why would you do that? And I'm like, why wouldn't you? Right. And I look back at it, and it was like they were upset about the wreck, and they just didn't understand why I thought I needed to like go be an activist. And I look at that and it's like, maybe that wasn't their values, but they were mine. And if that's right.
SPEAKER_01:And what I would what I would tell, what I would have told your parents in that situation is like, hey, maybe they're not your values, but they're hers. And if like if you can find a way to get in touch with that about your daughter, if you can get in touch with like, you know, God is a God of justice and God hates injustice. And I think it's so beautiful that, like, you know, what I'm seeing here, even though I don't think maybe this particular decision or that particular decision was the wisest one, or one that I would encourage you to make again or ever. But in the midst of that, I can see how you image a God who values justice. And then that can be an once a person is able to like feel seen by someone else, then that can be an opportunity to say, so let's talk about let's talk about how justice could even be enacted here, like with us.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like between me and you, like what's just for like you to for you to treat me, and what's a just way for me to treat you? And let's think about enacting that here. And and maybe it'll look different than I've been doing as a parent. I'm open to that, but also maybe it'll look different than you've been expecting as a kid. And I want you to be open to that. And now you're having real talk with your kid instead of fighting, and you're doing it on the basis of like praising something that they have already identified is important to them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. And I actually knew a parent that went with their child to a protest, and it was a protest this parent was not down with. They were like, I do not agree. Um, but they wanted to know what it was that their child saw in it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so they leaned in. And look, I'm not telling you to violate your moral values or any of those things at all, but to be curious, yeah, why is this important to you? You know, and one thing I will say with a lot of the Gen Z and Gen Alphas is they are looking at hypocrisy in the world and they are not cool with it. They're not happy about it. Yeah. And their minds aren't formed enough yet. You know, if you're a Gen Z or Gen Alpha listening to this and you're like, ma'am, like, look, dude, your brain is not going to be all the way wired up. It's just the way it is. And you're going to get to your like late 20s and be like, I was a ding dong. And that's okay because we're all in that place at times. You know, when we look at it, it's like, why are they upset with hypocrisy? Well, look at the news cycle, look at all of the shade they've seen, look at all of these things. How can I, as a parent, even if my values are very different, even if my expression of them would be very different, even if we share the same values?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:How do I lean in to the best of my ability? Again, not saying don't have boundaries, not saying don't use your moral compass, not saying any of those things, not saying to accept something that you don't believe to be godly. But what I'm saying is, can you be curious about the why?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:If you have been through spiritual abuse and your church posed you bad in your abusive relationship and you have gotten out and you finally found a new church and all that, and your kids don't want to go, it makes a lot of sense why they wouldn't. They saw the hypocrisy there.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And they don't have a full understanding of, well, some people are just doing things that don't look like Jesus at all. That's right. And so, how do we invite them into being curious about their own stance, being curious about where they're at if we're not curious about them first?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, totally. I 100% agree with you.
SPEAKER_03:So what is something that you would say to a parent of a spicy adolescent or young adult that like if you could say anything, if you could have mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, some caregiver sitting in front of you, what would you want to say to them right now?
SPEAKER_01:I think I would want to say, so let me just channel that I'm talking to this person right now. Here's what I would say to them. God knows. God sees, He knows what you've been through, He knows what they've been through. He knows that this is hard for you, He knows that this is hard for them. He loves you, He loves them, and the next step for you is to try to find a way to, I love what you just said, Tabby, to lean in. Like, what does that lean in look like? What does me understanding their relational world a little bit better? What does that look like for me? Whether I'm talking, honestly, whether I'm talking to the teenager or the parent, I would say that. What does it look like to lean in and try to take the perspective of this other person and try to understand them? And then we may be talking about this road, may be a really long road in terms of figuring each other out, recognizing where the other person's coming from, like getting to that place where your prefrontal cortex is fully developed. And again, to my point that I made earlier, it's like, yeah, I can think of a lot of decisions way, way after my prefrontal cortex was supposedly fully developed, that were like terrible decisions that I would love to have back. And that's part of, again, as an older man, as an older person, uh, you know, maybe this is just something that I think people sometimes need to hear. I would change decisions I made 10 years ago. So I mean, like that's that is not going to change. We're not going to get to that place of perfection. It's more about, as our pastor said in a sermon actually many years ago now, that we were doing his James series, but it's progress, not perfection. And that's what it is. That's what the Christian life is. Start to finish, that's what sanctification looks like. And so, like, and that's what life is, period. Whether you're a believer or not, what's the next step of progress that I can make? And for with in a relationship, not even just with a teenager, although again, I think that this applies there, but like in any relationship, I think trying to take their perspective, trying to be able to say the thing that to describe the thing that they did or the belief that they have in a way that they would be okay with, that that they would perceive as generous to them, you're not just dissing what they did. You're not just like putting it down. You're not just saying, like a political candidate might say to another political candidate on the stage, I guess you just don't care about immigrants or something. Like I I don't think that that's fair, right? It's the kind of fodder that happens on in political debates and that happens between two attorneys in a courtroom, but that should not be what happens in a relationship that's based on love. You want to try to be able to take the other person's perspective, try to be able to express it in a way that is generous to them, and then to be able to move towards them, hopefully, in that in love. Absolutely. That was a long time. I love that. That was great.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. I love that. I think what I would say is don't forget to pray. Yeah. Because I think a lot of times when I hear these words, well, when all else fails, pray. And I'm like, I mean, I would start with prayer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, let's start there. Right.
SPEAKER_03:God has a lot to say about that, but I think it can feel this way. And I remember reading this in Beth Moore's memoir, All My Notted Up Life, which if you haven't read it, I commend it. It's a fantastic book. And we'll link all the books and references in the show notes as well, so that if folks were like, What was that again? You'll have access to it. But in her memoir, she's talking about her husband Keith and his struggles with bipolar disorder.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And one of the things that she basically says is, Where is my miracle, God? You heal other people. I watch you do it. Where is mine?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And the Lord was so sweet to show her, not through making it better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Through changing her. And so that to me, for a parent who is struggling with a spicy kiddo, is such an honest question. Where's my miracle, God? I watch these people, like I was just at church this weekend, and this really beautifully tatted up brother who's clearly seen something, was getting baptized. And I could think about all the parents in the room who are like, Well, where's my son? Where's my daughter? Where's my miracle? Where's my husband? Where's this? Where's my sister? Whatever. Right. And I would just say, Don't grow weary of doing good, for in due time you shall reap a harvest, which is from Galatians 6. And we don't get to always dictate what that harvest is. Prayer isn't God is not a genie in a Bible, right? We don't rub it the right way and get what we want, right?
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:We have to trust his sovereignty and his goodness, and that can be hard. That can be really hard. But to not give up in prayer because we don't know the story's not written until we're at home home. And that means heaven. That's right. And so give over to prayer, even imperfectly. Again, progress, not perfection, like Greg says. It's give it to Jesus and then ask him to help you give it to him again and again and again and again and again. Yeah. Sometimes moment by moment, sometimes with each breath, with each tear. And find some support around you. Good parents who love Jesus and who will love you. And I'll say this to churches as well, especially for single mamas. A lot of times, single women in general, single people, men and women get overlooked in the church, but single women especially, and single mamas particularly. And there might be, you know, the oil change day where your church gets together and changes the oil and all the vehicles for every single mother. And that's great. But man, there are days when she just needs a hug and she just needs to be heard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And she needs men in the church to come alongside her son or daughter. And I know that everybody just freaked out and was like, well, I don't know, man. Sometimes people in church aren't trustworthy. I'm not saying like you check your brain at the door here. Like we want to vet human beings and all that.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But also the church should be helping plug some of these gaps emotionally and relationally. And I just think of back to I had done some disaster relief work and I'd flown a little too close to the sun, as the children say, uh-huh. And had definitely exceeded my capacity. And one night I was at another encounter service. A lot happens with me at encounter services, I'll be honest. But I'm at an encounter service and I was not good. I was not okay. And when they opened it up for prayer, went to find an elder to pray with. And this particular elder that knows me well saw me coming and he's from Louisiana. So he's got this beautiful accent. And he said, Mama, what's wrong? And just opened his arms and took me into his arms and just let me cry before I could even say, Well, you know, a boss girl too close to the sun during some disaster relief. I'm not good. I need prayer. Right. And as we prayed together, he said, you know, you just need somebody lift up your arms like Moses did. Let me be that person for you tonight. And he was. And so those are simple things. And it was so meaningful to me. Yeah. That he did that, that he saw me. And when we get to know the men and women in our church, we get to see them. And so for mom, dad, caregiver, don't be afraid to be known. Now, look, if you go to a church that sus, maybe find a different church that's safer. Like, let's be honest. I'm not going to be silly. Right. But you know, if you have a good body of believers around you, be known. Don't hide the spice in your family thinking no one will love me if they know. Because there's more than you think. And when you start to tell your own story appropriately, right? We're not shaming our children. Yep. When we start to tell our story appropriately, we find that there are more like us than we thought. And then we can get some of that goodness of, hey, how are you? Can I pray for you? And being fully known ourselves. And that's really important. And that gives you strength for the day sometimes, honestly.
SPEAKER_01:It does. It does. That's a good word.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I want to talk a little bit about some of the books real quick as we sort of land this plane. Greg is an author and he has written a couple of books. One is When Home Hurts with Jeremy Pierre. And it is such a great book for churches who need to understand domestic abuse and coercive control. It has one of my favorite diagrams of all time in it that finds its way into my presentations with Greg's permission and full attribution, which I am grateful for because it tells such a good story and understanding of how we're supposed to do both victim care, perpetrator care, and marriage care. It's one of my favorites. And then the other book is Caring for Families Caught in Domestic Abuse, where Greg has contributed to that and is really helpful. That's another book. It's really helpful for churches to look at and to say, I need to plan. And this book says, Hi, here's the ability to have a plan. And that's such a helpful resource for churches. And also, either one of these books, if you are a victim of domestic abuse and coercive control, either of these books can be helpful in you understanding the dynamics for yourself and understanding what good care should look like. And that's right. So these are things that I think can be very empowering for people as well. So I commend them to the church as a whole and then to victims as well. And you know, is there anything you added?
SPEAKER_01:I'm glad you said that about the it it shows you what good care should look like. Cause I think that that has been, I mean, we wrote the book for church leaders and pastors and people in care ministries and so forth. And there's we've certainly got good feedback from those people that that it's been helpful for them. But a place that we, I'm not sure realized how much it would be helpful is in victims actually reading it and then going, This isn't where I need to be. You guys are not doing this the right way. And being able to, or being able to say, I want to be here. You guys are not doing this the right way. Can you change the way you're doing this? To would you read this book and think about like the way that this care model is being presented and consider doing it? And they've actually taken responsibility for their own care, which is also awesome and has been really helpful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that is awesome. And I'll also note that Greg, we did mention this at the very beginning. Greg does consultation. So if you are a therapist or a biblical counselor out there listening and you're like, dang, I got a case that I think Greg could help me out with, we will have his contact information in the show notes as well on his website. Reach out to him and do some consultation with him. I've actually reached out when I first started doing perpetrator work, like it feels like a thousand years ago now.
SPEAKER_01:It does, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Gosh, I called Greg and I'm like, help.
SPEAKER_01:And we need more people in this work. So Tabby and I both want to really help people. So, yes, if you have any urge or perceived calling from the Lord or or anything that would nudge you into doing a little bit more of this work, or if you just got kind of shoved into it like we did and you want some help, yeah, feel free to reach out for sure. To either one of us, actually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. We would love to help you. But I want to thank you, Greg, for hanging out with us here on Hey Tabby and for just providing your wisdom and your feedback and letting folks, you know, lean into what is a hard topic, especially when you're in the middle of it, man. I think we can all look back at things 25 years after all the spice has somewhat diminished and go, oh, I wish I had done. But like in the middle of it, it's so hard to see out the other side. It can feel like standing in a sandstorm where you're like, I don't know which grain to grab. And so thank you for having this conversation. And for families out there, Greg's practice, my practice, this is a place that we can help. We can do parenting coaching. I know my practice does parenting coaching. We both do therapy.
SPEAKER_01:We would be happy to we have other people besides us that we supervise and lead. And so, yeah, take advantage of the journey and the process and Soul Care Associates. Yeah, we'd love to help.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. So thank you again, Greg. It has been so good to have you here, and we will see everybody else on our next episode of Hey Tabby. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-C-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.
