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When Niceness Isn't Kindness: The Hard Work of Batterer Intervention

• Tabitha • Season 1 • Episode 21

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What does true repentance look like for someone who has abused their partner? Is real change possible—and if so, what does it take?

In this hard-hitting episode of Hey Tabi, trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with pastor, biblical counselor, and domestic abuse interventionist Chris Moles to dig into the gritty realities of faith-based perpetrator intervention. Together, they unpack:

- Why traditional couples counseling fails in abuse cases
- What the Men of Peace program teaches about accountability and repentance
- How coercive control distorts a person’s view of love, intimacy, and authority
- Why emotional abuse is often just the beginning—and how to detect sexual coercion
- How pastors can avoid colluding with abusers and instead walk in truth and justice
- The vital need for multidisciplinary care teams to support both survivors and perpetrators

Whether you’re a survivor, a ministry leader, or a clinician, this conversation will challenge and equip you with biblical insight, clinical depth, and gospel hope.

💡 Listen in as we call abusers to repentance and the church to courage.

🔗 Find Chris at chrismoles.org, menofpeace.org

📘 Mentioned Resources: 
The Heart of Domestic Abuse - https://amzn.to/43g0BDq
Caring for Families Caught in Domestic Abuse - https://amzn.to/4jXYOd7
When Home Hurts - https://amzn.to/3YP3tpq

🛑 Trigger Warning: This episode contains candid discussion of abuse, sexual coercion, and spiritual harm.

🎧  If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

Wanna say hi? Send a text!

🎧 Subscribe to Hey Tabi for more expert conversations on trauma, faith, and healing.

Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

📩 Connect with Tabitha:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com
📲 The Journey & The Process Instagram - www.instagram.com/_tjatp

Subscribe to my YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there

👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this...

Speaker 1:

Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud, with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here and we are not. Take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of hey Tabby. I am joined by one of my favorite brothers in Christ and my good friend, Chris Moles. And Chris, I am going to invite you to introduce yourself to our audience.

Speaker 2:

Well, hey, tabby, it's good to be a podcast buddy.

Speaker 1:

You're the first person to do that. That was amazing.

Speaker 2:

Really, I thought that was supposed to be the gimmick. No, but we should start.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to telegraph that to other guests.

Speaker 2:

Yes, please. Well, friends, hey to you too. My name is Chris Moles. I'm a pastor, biblical counselor, I am an ordained minister and have worked in the field of domestic abuse intervention and prevention for nearly 20 years now. Field of domestic abuse intervention and prevention for nearly 20 years now. By God's grace, I have been able to work thousands of case hours with primarily men who are abusive and try to share some of that wisdom with the church family at large and the counseling community as well. And really thankful to be part of Tabby's tribe and be on the hey, tabby podcast.

Speaker 1:

I'm really excited to have you here, and you are the author of a couple of books, and we'll talk about those near the end and let folks know where to get them as well.

Speaker 1:

Today, we're going to talk about for lack of a better way to put it perpetrator intervention, batter intervention, invitation to repentance for those who are destructive, and this is something I see you do especially well. I have been through the men of peace training at this point, I don't know how many times I keep going because I love it, and also I don't think you can hear it too much, and that is one thing I will say just out of the gate. If you have not been trained in men of peace from a faith-based perpetrator intervention perspective, I commend it highly because you will learn so much. Even if you're an advocate who does not necessarily want to work with that population, I do think you need to understand it because it makes you a better advocate. And so tell me, chris, what made you want to move toward that invitational and also highly accountability related intervention process for people who are destructive men in particular, who are destructive.

Speaker 2:

I think it was providential. I would be lying if I had said that I had any type of plan or structure or desire to get into this work. Structure or desire to get into this work. I was a youth pastor struggling, then a church planter, struggling financially, and had found work part-time in my early ministry career in criminal corrections as an educator, and so I was working for a local corrections agency in behavioral health and it was just kind of like being in a small place, small town. I was a warm body who could put sentences together and really didn't feel like I was all that equipped. But found a niche there and discovered that I was pretty skilled as a teacher and was not intimidated by the population which helps.

Speaker 2:

Worked primarily with drug offenders and then began working as a batterer intervention group facilitator If anyone's familiar with Emerge, amends, duluth the big names in the secular community and it's just psychoeducational facilitated groups a lot of times functioning in the criminal justice system or in behavioral health or community-based agencies was trained in that process, began working with men and I did that in the criminal corrections world for 17 years I think, and it changed my life and really what was most interesting to me and this should answer your question, I hope was being a biblical counselor and being a pastor and watching how, when we brought in principles of worldview development and I think Greg Wilson and Jeremy Pierre did the best job of unpacking this in their book when Home Hurts that abuse is not just corrupted behavior, it's Hurts, that abuse is not just corrupted behavior, it's corrupted perception. So it's not just how we act but how we see the world, and I would say that from a great commandment perspective in my work, right that we're to love God, love others and have a proper understanding of who we are, and it gets completely distorted in abuse work and among abusers. But what I found was psychoeducation was addressing the behavior and the worldview, but we were restricted. We were told not to establish an alternative worldview. The thought was it's going to come naturally out of the individuals, which does not happen theologically.

Speaker 2:

So my partner and I, knowing this as Christians, we began to address the heart and within a matter of a few years we had the lowest recidivism rate in the state. We were being asked to help write curriculum. People were interviewing us for the DOJ about our groups and it really dawned on me that, ok, if just scriptural principles will make that big of a difference in a secular model. What would it look like if we went full blown with a biblical alternative? What would that look like if the church got a hold of this and the Lord just completely used that thought to birth my first book, and then the opportunities to travel and speak, and then Men of Peace, as you referenced, which is our digital course, and subsequent other products and pilot groups that we've seen around the country?

Speaker 1:

That's awesome and it's always interesting to me. Psychological research is really helpful when you don't look at what they think. The ideology is Right. Right, because there can be great observational research where you can go. I see this happening. Yeah, but the why really matters.

Speaker 2:

I think that's the big hang up with my world, tabby, and you've seen this too, and I know there's been way too much conflict over the Duluth power and control wheels.

Speaker 2:

I was in the Duluth model. I know full well that DAIP, that's the Duluth Abuse Intervention Project that philosophically they attribute a lot of their work to early critical theorists, like that didn't shock me and it didn't intimidate me, because the power and control wheel was created in interviews with 200 victims of domestic abuse. So the rubric, the lens that inspired the work was based in observation, the philosophy right, we're all going to bring our own thing to the table, and so when I saw the observational work, I wanted to bring biblical truth to the table and I think it's effective.

Speaker 1:

I think it's very effective. I know that as a co-facilitator of what is essentially a men of peace group under a different name that we have seen it be effective. It's going to sift out people one way or another, right. We are going to see the people who are hard in heart and who have no desire to change because they do not want to give up the power and control the way they see the world is. You are my property, and this is what I tell people all the time. Abusive individuals who are destructive people see you as basically a couch that can talk, make sandwiches and do other things. You are property, and that is the fundamental bottom line, because it's entitlement and pride and the same spirit that Satan had when he said I will sit on the throne and be like the most high, which is terrifying. And so I think bringing that biblical truth to it and saying we want to invite you to something different is so powerful to it and saying we want to invite you to something different is so powerful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, that's really the theological underpinning of that, which just having this conversation I think is helpful for listeners to hear that we're taking things that the world's observing, and then we're recognizing that scripture has been talking about this for a long time. Like you, you just described the heart of pride. Right, that's evident in almost every destructive pattern in Scripture that we have a remedy to, which is the heart, the mind of Christ. We talk about it in Philippians 2. Well, we've seen that in the research as well. I think it was Ellen Pence who first talked about abuse, every abuse relationship having destructive hierarchy, objectification, forced submission and impunity.

Speaker 2:

Well, then we look at biblical narratives, and I think you've heard me teach on 2 Samuel, where we've used that in King David's life. The same observable patterns are there. It's not like we're making things up, we're seeing this happen, and then the Bible reiterates that we saw it happen in ancient times. We see it happen in the human heart. People are broken and fragile and that depravity and fragility operate in this really unique way, and abusers are not exempt to that. In their own fragility and depravity they're doing incredibly wicked things that need to be addressed.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely and my observation is sadly a very few percentage that desire and will attempt to change right, it will really surrender to the Holy Spirit and let the word of God and the weight of Christ bear fruit in their life. Frankly. But for the men that I see eking towards safety is kind of how it feels, like they're just sliding along slow. I've seen them have to reckon with grief and past trauma and all of those things, and you and I both know addiction and trauma are not causative but they are correlative so they often happen together. But there's lots of people who experience both and never abuse anyone, but it doesn't negate that they are also there at times for people. But once you get that accountability and they're going, oh, I am the problem. You know, in the immortal words of Taylor Swift, hi, it's me.

Speaker 2:

I'm the problem.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you know. But they can start going I need to do this different, yeah and slide themselves with the Lord along a little bit, yeah.

Speaker 2:

We're told that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, and so if we're motivated to change right, we then have to experience God for who he is, because this is not and what I mean by that Tabby is everyone changes. It's just to what degree you change and in what direction you change right. So when pressure is applied, abusive individuals will sometimes become more obstinate, sometimes they'll become more manipulative or they'll behave better, and then sometimes transformations there, the transformative pieces we're saying, come through the conviction and power of the Holy Spirit. And yes, consequences can prompt us to pursue change, a desperation can prompt us, but really, without the Lord's kindness, that change is not going to be lasting and it's not going to be powerful.

Speaker 2:

I'll settle for safe people, but I really want to see sanctified people. Now, certainly, I'm working for victim safety. So if a guy makes necessary changes and she's okay with that, I'll be okay with that. But I really want to see transformation that happens in the heart and, like you say, it's rare but it's a work of the spirit and when it does happen, it's one of the most miraculous and reaffirming things about the gospel in my life.

Speaker 2:

It's like yes, the gospel is true and when we sing that song that it's the vilest and the poor. That's the reality for me.

Speaker 1:

When to see an abusive person turn in repentance and change, and lasting change, it's just evidence of how wonderful and mighty the gospel really is Absolutely, and I want to say this explicitly, just because you and I both know this gets a little tricky for people Just because someone changes does not mean the marriage will survive. Sometimes things are far too broken for reconciliation, and safety actually means that that is not reconciled, and so even if someone eventually does change, that may not and oftentimes, because things are so broken, cannot save the relationship. So I just want to say explicitly, because I think if someone's listening going, oh, but wait for God, wait for God. You know, like how long do you want someone to live in destruction on a hope? You know that doesn't seem like Jesus at all.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, a couple of things come to mind. One thing I tell guys quite a bit is that and we'll grieve this when the time comes, but understand that you may have forfeited certain aspects of your life that are now outside of your control. You've tried to control things so much that you've actually pushed them away, and so for the guys that I've worked with over the years, sometimes that means they forfeited their very freedom, right, because they're in jail or they're going to be under some kind of probation for a long period of time. Maybe they forfeited their work, but sometimes that means they forfeited their family and there is no rebuilding. And a lot of that has to do with the extent of the abuse.

Speaker 2:

So I find that guys that have really gone up the ladder to a high degree, it's really hard to step back down and rebuild that trust.

Speaker 2:

When you have sexually assaulted someone, physically assaulted them. Long-term emotional and psychological abuse, decades of harm, contempt and disdain are very hard to walk back. But then also it's the capacity of the individuals. So there's just no way of knowing what the marriage or the relationship will look like until we've done the hard work, what we call them parallel tracks of comfort for the victim, healing work and also confrontation, accountability for the perpetrator. We want to do that work first, and then we'll talk about reconciliation at the end and what that looks like, and you've heard me say probably a hundred times restoration and reconciliation to God, and then we'll worry about those earthly relationships, because most abusive individuals, even that, claim the name of Jesus. They need a salvific encounter with the Lord or they need a recommitment to the Lord, depending on your theological standpoint, more desperate than they need restored to marriage or certainly restored to ministry. They really need to focus on their relationship with Jesus and get that right, because the acts that they're perpetrating are definitively anti-Christ. They are contradicting the work and mission of Jesus.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, they most definitely are. In fact, if we look at Galatians 5, it's that first set of the fruits of the flesh that lead to death and destruction and whatnot that we are often seeing. Yet they're saying I believe in Jesus, and if that's true and the Holy Spirit is bearing weight on your life, then you should be at the end of Galatians 5, not the beginning.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and even if that's true so we come to the end of Galatians 5 and you're not full of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit and you are continuing to live in the works of flesh, then the church has given instructions in Galatians 6 of what our role is, which is as spiritual people as the spiritually mature in the church. We're supposed to call you to account. If someone is still burdened and overwhelmed by habitual sin, you, who are spiritual, restore such a one with gentleness, and God will not be mocked.

Speaker 2:

A man will reap what he sows, which is really honestly, the biblical framework for what we do Tabby in confrontational ministry is we try to couch this really hard work of confronting deep entrenched ugly, gross sin, with gentleness and winsomeness, because we know that God is in charge of the consequences. And it's like I used to say to my clients and then I'll throw it back to you I used to say to my clients in the correction side when they would try to plead their case and try to do classroom court, which I'm like we don't do classroom court, like I'm called to educate. You've already been judged. I'm not here to judge, like I'm really not going to bash your character, but you've already been judged and that sentence was to come to this class and with Christians and church members and people who claim to be Christians who are now coming to me for help with the abuse they perpetrated against their partner, you already stand under judgment.

Speaker 2:

That's the case for sin. I want to restore you to the Lord. I want less than the consequences, but I will be winsome and gentle. My job is not to be a jerk, because I think the judgment that you're standing under is a lot harsher than anything I could wield and I certainly want to invite you to repentance, not push you away from it and I think that's something we hear a lot in the church is what we need to punish and we need to be punitive, and really that's why God gave us the government according to Romans 13. But for us, as much as it depends upon us, we're going to live at peace with everyone and we're going to overcome evil with good, and sometimes I think we're going to overwhelm evil people with the goodness of God.

Speaker 1:

I would definitely agree and I'd say there's a middle path here. That from a practicality standpoint because I can see some pastors going oh well, we have to be winsome and gentle and that means they get to come to third service when the victim goes to first service, and I'm like that actually isn't kindness, that's niceness and those are not the same word.

Speaker 2:

Yep, that's Ephesians, chapter four, right, I think I'm getting my addresses correct. Verse 31, paul gives these six expressions of anger that are sinful rage, malice, slander, so on and then three expressions of anger that are righteous kindness, compassion and forgiveness. Just as in Christ, god forgave you. I bring that up because in responses to abuse, we as pastors, we should operate in a righteous indignation, a righteous anger, and so my role is really not to harm this individual. I want to help them, but that requires kindness, and that kindness is to speak the truth in love and to allow consequences to take effect. I'm supposed to be compassionate. I really do pity the situation that he's put himself in a really hard place. I'm not going to lessen that, I'm going to highlight that. And then I want to promote forgiveness, which is the same way that God forgave me. I need to repent. I need him to repent in order to make things right. So I would agree with you.

Speaker 2:

I think sometimes we lean into niceness and we put victims in really difficult situations, like passing him in the hallway or even defying court orders. We've had victims who sought the help of civil authorities and had no contact orders, and the church is trying to navigate the opportunity for them to go to the same church for worship. I'm like A it violates the court order. B how is anyone going to comfortably worship with their abuser in the room or in the building? Find a partner church, find another pastor, work it out. If they want to worship, then worship should be more important to them than being in the presence of their spouse. Right, so it's. You want to worship? Go worship over at Brother John's Presbyterian Church or Sister Sally's Pentecostal Church. Don't come here knowing that it's going to put your victim in a difficult situation. And really, last point, a willing heart does that.

Speaker 2:

A willful heart resists that.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And there's also this really fun thing called the internet that you can watch the live stream on a Sunday and sit at home and make your own pancakes. And if you are really truly caring about the victim and you are the perpetrator and you're like I really do want to change, I see the error of my ways, then your butt is sitting at home, you are doing whatever it takes to prove that you can adhere to a boundary, and I know that in my work with perpetrators I have seen the ones that absolutely don't do that. They're like well, I don't understand, like how long is it going to take? And it's like oh, my friend, it's going to take much longer than you'd like. And that makes me think of, I mean, galatians 6.1, which is do not grow weary of doing good, for in due time you shall reap a harvest.

Speaker 2:

Right. So the idea that resistance is viewed as an attack is a big deal with perpetrators, because perpetrators often feel like they're victims right, so they see boundaries as an attack. And then the second is the willful willing that I just said, actually understanding that you are no longer in control right and resting in that control right and resting in that. And I would say, when I've had guys over the years Tabby who have finally let go of that and they're like I caused this, like I created this mess, and so I need to be humble enough to respond to her requests or respect those boundaries, I feel like man, we're halfway home now, like we've rounded second at this point, because we've spent weeks upon weeks, upon weeks answering questions like well, when can we get back together in the home, and when can we start marriage counseling, and when will this happen? And haven't I done enough? And I've done everything you guys have asked me to do, and I'm like you're asking all the wrong questions, bro, like you're asking all the wrong things.

Speaker 2:

And when that heart transformation begins to happen, and when repentance really begins to be embraced, that's when we see what our friend Greg calls ownership. I've seen my sin, now I'm owning my sin, and now I'm walking into this hatred of my sin. I'm beginning to see my sin, the way God does, right. My sin is not an obstacle to me getting what I want. So I've got to sin better or sin differently. My sin has actually separated me from a holy God and it's put me in a desperate situation and I need repentance, forgiveness, grace and mercy, and then I need to live that type of life. That's good stuff That'll preach.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely For sure, and I think there's such a grasping at that control because it has been what they have always done and it's worked for them. I also think it might be very helpful for pastors to understand, especially if they're not familiar with victim care. You may not see evidence of physical abuse, but this is my contention as a therapist who is a neuroscience geek All abuse, all coercive control, is physical abuse because unless you can take your brain and stick it outside your body, in a jar that is inside your body and it's dumping out neurochemicals that are causing all kinds of shenanigans like inflammation, autoimmune disease, especially if it goes on every long periods of time, and this is what I have not heard very many pastors ask about, and I think they should start if they're going to do this work and really press in with people and shepherd is what's happening in the bedroom, because I guarantee you, almost every victim I have ever worked with has been sexually assaulted over and over and over for years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's what I was getting ready to say. I think A bringing up the autoimmune disorders. That's been an interesting realization, probably the last what 10 years when we've actually begun to see how longstanding emotional what we call longstanding emotional abuse tends to affect us physically, whether it's GI issues or digestive issues. But then this autoimmune component, it's been really fascinating. The correlation between that. It's similar to the correlation that we're seeing in the abuser world. This is just nerd talk and I'll pivot with things like OCD among abusers and how they're developing certain behavioral disorders, which is really interesting, and it becomes a control mechanism. And then I think the second to that that's been really fascinating is that second point you bring up.

Speaker 2:

I was getting ready to say when I have a pastor or a ministry leader or even a counselor, especially biblical counselors, who contact me and talk about suspected emotional abuse, which is a really tricky topic in the Christian world right now, they'll say something like all we see, all she's experiencing is emotional abuse. I'll say probably not. The odds are really really good that if you start pulling the rope you're going to find other aspects of abuse. And I always encourage them to start with sexual coercion because we have seen not 100% of the time, but the vast majority of time. If someone's experiencing ridicule, coercion, threat, fear, that is tied to those emotional categories, the odds are really really good that that's presenting itself in the bedroom. And now you've got two points on the map right A sexual assault and emotional abuse. And then you're like well, I probably got to pry in the money.

Speaker 2:

Oh for sure, or I really need to talk to him safely, with the advice and consent of the victim and a safety plan and all the things. But once I talked to him I really need to address the minimization, denial and blame, because that's going to be probably the first thing that he presents with. And now I've got three points on my map and I'm like I'm seeing a pattern and that's in the abuse world. That's the ticket right. Once we establish a pattern, now we know what we're dealing with and it reveals a lot more what's happening in the heart and the mind.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And for the pastors who might be listening to this and think I'm sure it's not like that, I will tell you about a group of guys that I was co-facilitating a perpetrator group, and we got to sex week and me, being a certified sex addiction therapist, that always gets volleyed over to me.

Speaker 1:

I can't imagine why, and one of the things we were talking about was consent and what is consent actually? And the way that I define consent is it's either a hell yes or a hell no, and there is no in between, frankly, but it's an enthusiastic yes. And I asked them have you ever had sex with your wife, done any sexual behaviors, not just intercourse, because sex is more than just intercourse without explicit consent? And I watched a whole group of men get much more pale and very quiet, and so we asked them to think about that. Over the course of the week that was their homework, and the next week they came back and I said how many of you have engaged in sexual behavior with your wife without explicit consent? And every guy in the room and and we had 11, put their hand up and I said there is one word for what you have done and that is rape, and that is something pastors don't lean into Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so consent, like especially in the sexual abuse conversation, consent's a massive discussion. I remember one time in a group we had broke up into smaller groups because we had a large class at that time and I was always the guy that got that one Like I was the one that had to facilitate the sexual coercion theme and we had a guy asking questions because he was really confused and honestly, his ignorance is not an excuse. He was so confused and it was one of the other clients that said, bro, you, you are raping her and it was like he was hit with a brick in the face. He really he really thought that sexual expression in a relationship was totally dependent upon him and his needs were central. It was so selfish and self-centered and we could go into the whole contributive conversation about his past trauma, how he was affected as a child and all of that, but nonetheless he was sinning against his partner in a significant way that required another guy to highlight it.

Speaker 2:

And I think part of that is we don't talk about it in our culture. When we do talk about it, we talk about it in really poor terms and I was just speaking to our friend Greg about this recently, because he and I are doing a webinar on some of this. Discussing some of the incel things is feeding existing misogyny, meaning it is an ideological perspective that's interpreting the world through a corrupted lens and really as Christians we have a biblical lens that we should be seeing the culture through. So the culture's misogynistic in a lot of ways and the pushback is usually inappropriate, like a lot of the feminist pushback has deviated so far that it's like well, that's not healthy. So there's a biblical worldview that we need to introduce guys to in all of these topics. But back to the original point, tabby, if I hear emotional abuse and a pastor or a ministry leader calls me and that's all they found, I highly encourage them to start with sexual coercion and then move around the circle finding more, because the odds are dollars to donuts, there's probably sexual coercion happening.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I think this is a place where I would invite pastors to lean in in a couple of ways. One look at your own theology on male-female relationships and marital sexual relationships, because there can be some real distortion there. You know her, yes, was not at the altar, that is not what 1 Corinthians 7 says. It's actually an equalizer, because in that culture women didn't have the right to say no and so when Paul says, the inspiration of the spirit his body's also yours.

Speaker 2:

Exactly yeah, that never existed before.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And so I think, to me sanctification is being willing to let the word bear weight and the Holy Spirit bear weight on what I believe. And one of the things I see just doing this work, on both the perpetrator and the victim side, is that sometimes pastors don't realize the water they swim in and what they've been drinking. And it reminds me of that old adage that we hear a lot of the two younger fish are swimming along and the older fish swims by and goes how's the water? And they go what water, what's?

Speaker 2:

water, because they don't know.

Speaker 1:

And so, for pastors, I would just invite you, are you like towing the system line? Whatever system you're in, whatever denomination you're in, are you really letting the Holy Spirit bear weight on your soul for sanctification? And then what? I'm just going to say this if you're struggling with your own pornography use and the Barna Study Commission, by Pure Desire, would say you probably are, because there's a lot then that is something you need to take before the Lord and work through, because pornography inherently is a non-consensual domination thing.

Speaker 2:

It invites objectification because it does reduce individuals made in the image of God, to consumables. Right, and that's one of those key pillars, or key foundational elements to abuse. It's not abuse necessarily in and of itself it can be, but combined with power, right, impunity, subjugation, it creates this perfect storm of harm. And I would say to any pastors and ministry leaders listening in as well you do have, we all have everything we need for life and godliness, so it's not like the Bible's insufficient, but you and I are, and so it's nice to have comparable conversations to flesh out our practical theology. What does it look like to have certain theological discussions in this setting and in this setting and in this setting and I'll commend to you and Tabby, you were there a couple of years ago Pastor Ben Marshall did some talks for us at PeaceWorks Live and one of them was called what Every Pastor Already Knows, and it was, and I never would have thought of this he just talked about soteriology and ecclesiology and all these different theological terms and applied them to abuse.

Speaker 2:

And it was so beautiful to me to be like oh yeah, you have everything that you need, If we'll just not be scared right, afraid of being called woke or afraid of not being sufficient and being able to handle the problem, but addressing it with what we already know and then getting help from those in areas where we don't know, and then we can get help practically. Which I think is what makes our partnership work is my willingness and our willingness to cross over maybe the divide, the non-existent divide, of being an LPC versus being a pastor, versus being a biblical counselor, and recognizing that we're believers, first part of the body of Christ, fulfilling different roles.

Speaker 1:

I always tell people we're going to hang out together in heaven for like forever. We should get along here on earth, which is super fun. But I do think, when we understand the body analogy, the metaphor that the Lord gives us, right, we all tend to think of the hands, feet, but there are spleens and kidneys and a million different parts of the body. And I have a role as a licensed counselor. You have a role as a pastor and biblical counselor, and biblical counselors who are not also pastors have a role. I know on my team I have a biblical counselor. We're hoping to have more because we all have a role to play and not all biblical counselors are take two verses and call me in the morning and untrauma informed and are going to be sin detectors of their clients. Good biblical counseling doesn't actually look like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well said. I think the caricatures that we tend to paint each other right, that you know this group is unsophisticated and doesn't care about the physical dimension, or this group over here is theologically inept and doesn't understand the scriptures, those caricatures don't help anybody, right, because in the body of Christ, what does help is understanding that as the severity of a problem increases, so should the maturity of the person responding. And so we need mature believers in different perspectives, different aspects, different fields, to meet those needs when they come. And sure I get it.

Speaker 2:

I wouldn't want a biblical counselor who's immature in the Lord. I wouldn't want some 22-year-old coming directly out of one of our seminaries, you know, speaking into some of the problems that I work with. I'd want them to learn and grow and and and mature a little bit. And the same is true. I wouldn't want an LPC who doesn't know the word of God, or maybe just came to know the Lord, all of a sudden considered themselves an expert in theology, like that's not how this works and we just need to, I think, love and respect each other and recognize the equipping skill, talent and maturity that God's given us in the church Maybe a little bit of wisdom and actually get to know each other rather than just assume things about each other. That would help.

Speaker 1:

Wouldn't that be delightful, I feel like. Also, what you just described too, though, is like such an invitation for discipleship right For pastors to come alongside LPCs and licensed counselors, and also marriage and family therapists and all of the licensed types like we can talk about all those at some other point Also more mature people in the Lord, to come alongside people who are newer in their faith and encourage us to share information and work together and learn from each other. I know that my very first batterer case for me was an accident. It was someone I was seeing for someone else, and then it came out in the session after I'd been seeing this individual for several years and went, oh no, and my first phone call was you, because I could not find another person to refer them out to, and God kept saying no, it's you, you're going to do it and I'm like oh God no, and so I called you and you were gracious to me and walked with me through that case, and that's honestly how I started my men of peace journey.

Speaker 2:

That's how you got into it.

Speaker 1:

It is and God's like yeah, this is the only way you would have listened is if you had just done this. So I was so grateful, though, for that, because it was not my wheelhouse at the time. It's much more now, but it wasn't then, and if I didn't have that discipleship, if I didn't have your partnership in that, I could have done incredible damage and people could have been deeply harmed or killed, and so I think that's where we all need each other.

Speaker 2:

Quick plug, maybe for men of peace and you can correct me if I'm wrong I feel like maybe that process or environment, let's say the context of men of peace being able to work groups with a partner.

Speaker 2:

I believe that is the safest, best way to develop skill fast, and it is much safer than just I've worked six cases of abuse, one after the other. I mean that's good and you're going to learn a lot and you going to struggle a lot and you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. But actually working with a partner, with a group of eight guys or six guys, gives you the comfort of having somebody another set of eyes on it and it also allows you to hear multiple stories at once and develop a little bit of skill in your interaction. That's my take on it. I think the Lord brought me into intervention so that I could gain skill and experience at a more rapid rate than I would have if I put out a shingle and just met an abusive person. An abusive person, an abusive person. Instead, I was working with dozens at a time.

Speaker 1:

I agree completely. This actually, in my practice, is one of the things that I have required of my team in various ways. So those who are willing, I don't force anyone into perpetrator work, because we all have our own stories.

Speaker 1:

And some folks it's not their thing, but for the interns particularly that I end up having, I've had them like be part of the co-facilitation of a men of peace type group, where they're more observers and it's myself and another a man doing the main co-facilitation, and I have seen that bear such fruit, not only in their ability to now be co-facilitators in those groups but also in their individual work with perpetrators. On my team we have 11 practitioners and nine of us are trained in men of peace, which is stunning. And even though not everyone works with perpetrators, the understanding of the work is so helpful to victim care.

Speaker 2:

I think it helps with victim care too.

Speaker 1:

It really does and to say like no, we do understand that this is intentional, and all the things that we know from knowing how to do perpetrator work can really not only bear weight on the perpetrators that we see, but also on the victims to help them stay safe and set healthy boundaries and see things rightly. So those are all such good things, and if we weren't collaborative, if we weren't a team, I don't know how this would work. I would be very fearful, as a therapist that specializes in the deep end of the pond we are deep trauma that I would miss something essential and end up putting people at risk. And our first ethic in case people don't know is do no harm. And I think that's probably same on the biblical counselor side. Maybe it's said differently, but for us it's a big deal not to mess this up.

Speaker 2:

So I think, I think you would have been okay, tabby, working at a slower pace and case by case. And everybody who does that makes mistakes. Actually, everyone who does intervention makes mistakes. There's no perfect intervention. That has ever happened in the history of interventions.

Speaker 2:

So I think you would have been okay working case by case, but I do think what men of peace and what facilitated groups do is, like that work a little bit on steroids, and it gives you that confidence that you need and that psychoeducational response, takes it a bit out of the therapeutic world and it puts it into a collaborative, which is something that abusive individuals need. They need to be confronted and be held accountable but then also be invited into the work, not have the work done for them.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes a therapeutic environment tempts them to collude and try to find ways to control, and a group is less likely for them to gain control.

Speaker 1:

I will say it not only tempts them, it invites them if you don't know what you're doing, because the way that we're trained as therapists is unconditional positive regard right, we were trained to see the good. Now, as a therapist, that doesn't mean that we don't confront the hard things, the destructive things. We do all of that, but it's a different paradigm. And when you're doing abuse work, it is upside down. Your client is not in the room, and that is a vital understanding of the work, because anything you say or do goes home man. And so if you are not mindful of this, you are sending someone destructive home with a sword, and that is highly unwise and also really messes up the do no harm thing, because not only is it not good for the victim, but it's not good for the perpetrator.

Speaker 2:

Exactly Also someone made in the image of God, who needs the truth desperately right in order to change. Granted, our primary client again is the victim and maybe the children, but he needs the abusive individual, needs heart change dramatically and in the most desperate way for the victim, but then also for their future. Way for the victim, but then also for their future Right and even consequently, their relationship with God, because they stand in a pretty significantly dangerous place in their relationship with the Lord.

Speaker 1:

You know, I always think of the sheep and goats. You know, lord, lord, didn't I do X, y, z for you, and God's like you did a bunch of stuff and I don't know who you are, and that terrifies me personally, like I don't understand how people don't have fear of the Lord, cause I have a lot. I do not want to stand on the wrong side of the living God. I will be honest, and so when I look at these guys and they're like I'm fine, I'm like you are not fine.

Speaker 1:

I'm worried about you.

Speaker 2:

Well, I know this will be a good way to start landing the plane. I think is the number of times I can't count the number of times I've said to guys cause it does get hard and you really care because you want this change to happen. But when I've had to have those conversations, usually privately, during a check-in, I cannot care more about this than you do. Like brother, I have carried water for about five weeks now. It's time to switch places. I cannot care more about your sanctification than you do.

Speaker 2:

You have got to take this seriously and that's those rubber, meet the road, fish or cut bait conversations Going back to our struggle in ministry. I think those are the hard ones for pastors to have. Yeah, conversations going back to our struggle in ministry. I think those are the hard ones for pastors to have, because we want to show grace and we believe that repentance is possible, and I believe all those things too. But for the sake of the victim and for the sake of this person's heart, there are times that you got to care more than I do. This is your soul.

Speaker 1:

And I think in the church in general and I think this would just be my final call for the people listening, especially if they're ministry leaders it's going to take longer than you want and it's going to be way messier, and you are going to have to pray a whole lot more than you already do, which might be a lot, and you just have to take the timelines off.

Speaker 1:

Man, we're looking at eternity, not a six month program, and when we look at it that way, I think that gives us a little more stamina. And I know that there are probably pastors listening whose hearts are racing because they're like I have a church of like 25 people and oh my goodness. But also, this is why partners are great, because then you don't carry the load alone, right, we lift each other's arms and we come alongside and we also bang our heads against the wall when it's frustrating, you know, and all of those things, because we're willing to get in the Bible with the seed has to go into the ground and it has to die in order to grow. And we are called to take up our cross, we are called to crucify our flesh. That is what the Holy Spirit is doing, and if we're doing that. Those are not pretty, those are not clean, those are not tied up with a bow metaphors. They are a hot mess and we should have a little dirt and some tears for us.

Speaker 2:

They are a hot mess and we should have a little dirt and some tears, true stories, and that's what this work is. It's messy, but I don't know, tabby, I wouldn't trade it, like for all the hardship it pales, I tell people because people recognize how difficult the work is, and they'll ask me like how do you do it?

Speaker 2:

And I'm like as hard as the work is, sometimes it pales in comparison to what just one victim is experiencing on a regular basis and I'm like as hard as the work is sometimes it pales in comparison to what just one victim is experiencing on a regular basis, and I want to know Jesus in the fellowship of his suffering and the power of his resurrection, and so I believe not only in this kind of solidarity aspect but also in that resurrection power, that there's power for victims to experience freedom and hope and there's power for perpetrators to experience change, and I think that keeps us motivated to keep writing books and keep doing conferences and keep training people and keep meeting with folks.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. I would like to give you a minute here as we end this. I want you to talk about PeaceWorks PeaceWorks University, because it is awesome. I've been a part of that for I don't know how many years at this point, it's been a while. It's been a hot minute, I think, like almost since pretty close to the very beginning actually, and I'd love you to tell us about your books as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I have a couple books out there the Heart of Domestic Abuse Gospel Solutions for Men who Use Violence and Control in the Home. That was my first book and that is an overview of my intervention process from a biblical perspective. The second is collaborative, where I was the general editor, called Caring for Families Caught in Domestic Abuse. That's from New Growth Press.

Speaker 2:

Peaceworks is the ministry name and it was actually I don't know if you even know this Tabby when I was dreaming about what to do next. Peaceworks was really birthed out of this idea of a factory mindset and it's got three gears as the logo and I thought, okay, what would it look like to have this manufacturing feel of working for peace? And so that's what PeaceWorks is, this factory of peace that we wanted to develop, and out of that we run a couple different things. The PeaceWorks podcast the world's worst podcast drops every Tuesday morning at 6 am on all the platforms. Peaceworks University is our online membership community, of which Tabby is a part. It's about 200 helpers from around the country, around the world, really that get resources.

Speaker 2:

We have a huge vault of resources probably the biggest vault of resources out there on the topic of dealing with domestic abuse from a gospel-centered perspective. Men of Peace menofpeaceorg ChrisMolesorg is my main site. Menofpeaceorg deals with the Men of Peace digital course and Men of Peace programming. And then, lastly, is PeaceWorks Live. That's our annual conference. September 11th through the 13th 2025 is this year's conference in Winfield, west Virginia. We have limited seating. We always limit the number of folks. I think this year the ceiling is 250. We got two tracks stewarding survivor stories featuring Melissa Affolter. Elise Fitzpatrick and Rachel Denhollander will be our primary speakers, and then the Men of Peace Facilitator track, with myself and Greg Wilson training on men of peace, and our worship leader once again is Adam Westlake, who is amazing. And I think that's all the plugs. Plug, plug, plug, plug, plug.

Speaker 1:

I love them all. If you're a pastor or a ministry leader listening to this and you're like we don't have a program, oh gosh. The collaborative book, the Caring for Families Caught in Domestic Abuse really helpful because it really does cross, like, all the different areas that you need and it really is an example of teamwork, makes the dream work, as it were, in this work, and so I would definitely commend that book to you. If you're just starting out, the Heart of Domestic Abuse is incredibly helpful.

Speaker 1:

In fact that is how I got one of my employees. He was an intern candidate at the time and I said what do you understand about domestic abuse and coercive control? And he said well, I've read the Heart of Domestic Abuse by Chris Moles and I was like you're hired, Welcome aboard. And I've trained him since then and it's been fabulous. So you know, the PeaceWorks resources that are out there through the chrismolesorg is so helpful and even if you're not sure you want to do perpetrator work, I very much encourage you come to a PeaceWorks Live, go through the Men of Peace track, because it is so incredibly helpful in the understanding of things and the understanding of how perpetrators in some ways even think.

Speaker 2:

If nothing else, you will love the community 100%. The PeaceWorks community is the best, one of the best tribes out there, and we have a great time. And it is a healing weekend, just a respite for all of us to see each other's faces and hear from like-minded people what the Lord's doing.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, chris. Thank you so much for hanging out with me. We are so grateful that you are here, and I will have all of your links and information in the show notes as well, so folks can find you. And just thank you for being a good brother. I know so many of the people that listen to the hey Tabby podcast are survivors, and it can be so hard, when your church has betrayed you, when your spouse has betrayed you, to believe that there are any good men on this earth. And I stand in testament, because I have wonderful brothers like you, that there are. And so thank you for being a good brother. Thank you for letting the gospel bear weight on your life so that it can bear weight on the lives of others.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, tabby. It's been a real pleasure to be with you and hopefully we'll get more guests saying hey, tabby, at the beginning.

Speaker 1:

That's going to be fun. I'm going to try that.

Speaker 2:

I kind of feel like if I could say this on the podcast, we'll have listeners writing in Send your cards and letters. I feel like the intro should just be somebody shouting hurt.

Speaker 1:

You never know what could happen. Well, thank you again, Chris. You are a delight and I'm so glad that you were here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

God bless you, buddy. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrookcom. Forward slash hey Tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Tabitha Westbrook, LMFT-S, LCMCH-QS, LPC-S, CSAT, CCTP, CCTCP

Host
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Chris Moles

Guest