Hey Tabi!

Are You The Nagging Woman Proverbs Talks About?

• Tabitha • Season 1 • Episode 19

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Have you ever feared being seen as the "nagging wife" from Proverbs? You're not alone.

In this powerful episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with women's leader and author Kelly Galyean to explore how biblical illiteracy has fueled shame and silence for many Christian women. Together, they unpack how Scripture has often been misunderstood or weaponized—especially in the context of marriage, trauma, and abuse.

Kelly vulnerably shares her story of learning about these verses in context, and with courage and hope. They also discuss how the church can better support women, what healthy marriages actually look like, and why biblical literacy is critical for healing from spiritual and emotional harm.

Plus, Kelly introduces her Christian romance novel How Can It Be?—a redemptive story of love, grace, and starting over.

Whether you've felt silenced, shamed, or just spiritually stuck, this episode offers wisdom, warmth, and practical encouragement for your healing journey.

Find Kelly - http://www.kelligalyean.com/
Kelly's Instagram - @kelli.a.galyean
Order How Can It Be? - https://a.co/d/901G5Ly

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🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

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Tabitha Westbrook:

Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here and we are not. Take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now let's get going.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I am super stoked for this week's episode of hey Tabby. I am here with my good friend, kelly Galleon, and we are going to talk about some awesome things, but first I want to tell you who Kelly is. Kelly is not only a wonderful woman and fierce friend, she has also got years of experience in women's leadership. She studies the Bible like nobody's business. It is amazing to hear her talk about the Word of God and she is also an author. She wrote this very cool book. It is a Christian romance novel that does not suck, called how Can it Be? I definitely commend it and I know, kelly, you have a copy of it, so I'm going to have you hold it up. So if you're not watching this and you're only doing the listening, you're missing the beautiful cover of it all. We'll talk about where you can find it and how you can get it, and a little bit more about it near the end of our time together.

Tabitha Westbrook:

So Kelly and I are going to talk today about some scriptures and the importance of understanding what they actually mean, and if you listened to another recent episode of the hey Tabby podcast, you know that I talked about the importance of biblical literacy for healing, and I think that this conversation is just going to keep going with that in a lot of ways. So first of all, welcome, kelly. Thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so, so excited about this. So tell me about the scripture that kind of got us started on this. It is in the book of Proverbs.

Kelli Gaylean:

Well, it was more of a conversation that was happening over and over. I kept hearing people start talking about marriage or talking about relationships or manhood or womanhood, and they would start with the nagging wife. They would start by saying the Bible says that it is better to die in the wilderness than to have a nagging wife. And so it became this thing that got under my skin and I got curious about it and I was just like how much does it talk about the nagging wife? Because they would quote that scripture and it's like, oh, it's in the Bible, sure, it is, but like how many times is it in the Bible and what does it actually say? So I just was curious one day and I looked and it's really only nagging wife is only in the Bible like three times.

Kelli Gaylean:

They're all in Proverbs. It's in Proverbs 21 a couple of times and it's in Proverbs 27 once. So if you want to look at Proverbs 21, in verse nine it says and these are these Proverbs, these are like little snippets of advice from a father to a son. And so there's just chapter after chapter of these little pithy one-liners that are the wisdom that this man wants to pass down to his son. So Solomon says better to live on the corner of a roof than to share a house with a nagging wife. And then later in verse 19, he says better to live in a wilderness than with a nagging and hot-tempered wife. And so these in the Proverbs 27 line is, it's very similar in verse 15, an endless dripping on a rainy day and a nagging wife are alike. The one who controls her controls the wind and grasps oil with his right hand. It's like, basically, this woman is out of control and she is relentlessly unpleasable.

Kelli Gaylean:

I went to the dictionary actually another great Bible study tool and I looked up the word nag and there were a few different definitions, like to badger incessantly, things like that, and I was just like so the nagging wife is relentlessly unpleasable. And so here is my like what has honestly become my nightmare. To be right, if my husband was to be like you're just a nagging wife, I would just will. I would not recover from that. It would hurt my feelings so badly because it has been this threat what if this is who you are? And to be relentlessly unpleasable.

Kelli Gaylean:

And I was able to use the Bible and that dictionary together and say, oh, am I relentlessly unpleasable? No, I'm not. I know that I am grateful for my husband and I am grateful for the things that he does and I am grateful for who he is and I like him and I know that he knows that because I tell him that I encourage him, I love him. Well, we walk in partnership. My husband is very welcoming of me and of my voice and he honestly has valued my voice, for I mean, we've been married 20 years this year and it's been 20 years of him valuing me, of him esteeming me, and so it was like the truth actually just destroyed that fear, just obliterated it, because it was like, oh, that's not what I am.

Kelli Gaylean:

I would have to change who I am in order to be a nagging wife, and so that was a really sweet freedom for me. And then the Lord just gave that to me, like I'm not the only one married, I'm not the only woman experiencing that, I'm not the only one married, I'm not the only woman experiencing that. I'm not the only woman who has that fear, and I thought, well, how can I help my sisters to see?

Tabitha Westbrook:

this is what that word means, and there's a very low chance that that is actually you us up a little bit because I think this is such a good discussion and you know that relentlessly unpleasable is the important factor there in all of it, because the way that this gets taught often and the way I've heard it since I was a child, is, well, you're just a complainer or whiner, you're just asking too much. And then men who are wicked will say to their wives you're not even allowed to make a complaint because then you're a nagging wife or you're like the dripping water one. I've heard pastors over and over since, like desert storm, call it being waterboarded by your wife and I'm like, well, thanks for that illustration, ick. But that then says to a woman you can't even make a complaint and for wicked men that's a weaponized scripture. So there are probably women listening to us right now who are like I have had that used against me. They might actually notice their hearts racing and their palms sweating and all of the symptoms of a trauma trigger and body activation.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Because it's been misinterpreted and what I liked that you started off with this was one of my favorite things because I heard you do it, but I'm going to explain what you did. You said if you understand the way the book of Proverbs is written, which is step number one in Bible study, right, and you and I both know how to study the Word of God. Well, and that's something I've talked about on this podcast was who wrote it? To whom did they write it? What were their purpose in writing it? And so you gave us that and it was like, okay, here's the context in which it was written, and I know that we have both studied under Jen Wilkin and one of the things that she says and help me if I get this wrong, because I know you've heard it probably more than I have but it was written for them and for then, for us and for always and for me and for now. Did I get that right? I feel like I might have missed something.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Okay, so, looking at it in context of what was it written for? And you gave us that. So it was written by a man to his son and their little pieces of wisdom and principles and I know, with Proverbs in particular, especially, train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from. It was also weaponized, and so if you had a child that was wild and out, then you must have done something wrong, when in reality, we just have free will and crap happens.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And these are principles and not the letter of the law, and it's almost like we want to make it alchemy. It's like we treat the Bible and these proverbs sometimes as if they are like spells that we can cast over our families, and so I think it really is important to start with who's it to and why, what are we doing here? And then to really look at what does it mean? Because the language means something, and if we look at etymology of words, then we have to figure out where they came from, and I love that you were like dictionary. Let us look in the dictionary, which is a good Bible study tool.

Kelli Gaylean:

All these years of training?

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yes, it's a beautiful thing, though, because the other thing that you said is the truth set me free, and I believe there's a corresponding scripture which is you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And I believe there's a corresponding scripture which is you will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free, definitely, and it does. And it sets you free from oppression and tyranny. So if someone is using that scripture as tyranny, as oppression, then I would not want to be them at the end of days, if they don't repent, I'll be honest because they are oppressing their spouse.

Kelli Gaylean:

Right, and I think it also sets you free to reasonableness. Am I asking for something unreasonable? Are my expectations reasonable? Here, and I think that I mean obviously the beginning of Proverbs, solomon is talking about the value of wisdom, and then he just has these little small statements of all of the wisdom that I have. It's like that last big push before you launch your child to send them to college or to go and live on their own as an adult. Did I do enough? Did I say everything? Well, solomon wrote it all down, or probably had one of his many scribes write it down for him. But what is that wisdom Like? That wisdom is in you, through the Holy Spirit. And so what does that wisdom say? Are you being unreasonable when you invite your husband in a conversation? Are you being unreasonable when you ask your husband to partner with you in something? I think that that really protects our mind right and that truth of what is reasonable and what is not.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Absolutely. And I think that for survivors because their voice was often silenced using scriptures just like this that when they get out they can also go to the other end of the pendulum and just very much be demanding and unpleasable, and not intentionally it is a trauma response of like you're not going to get me again, right, and I get that. And I think sometimes, as people are looking at things and couples are trying to work through stuff, asking what makes sense here, where could this be coming from? How did we get here? What makes this make sense, can be really helpful. And it is a good place to check our hearts.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Just because we're a survivor of abuse potentially and I know not everybody listening is but for those who are, and that is the trauma that you experienced then you can have an extreme reaction and that is your own heart that is trying to self-protect and I get it a hundred percent because abuse is not fun and no one wants to do that again. But also to then be able to say am I unpleasable? Which is like nothing is good, right, like unpleasable is. Well, you brought home Swiss cheese and it wasn't baby Swiss cheese, and I really wanted the lacy Swiss cheese from Boar's Head and you are therefore a terrible spouse. And it's like, well, unless they're like bringing home the wrong Swiss cheese as a way to like pick at you and torture you, which some coercive controllers do I've known many that will bring home things that their spouse legitimately can't eat because they have celiacs or something, and tell them starve or suffer, and so if it's that, then clearly we have a pattern of power and control, right.

Tabitha Westbrook:

But if it's, they just made a mistake at the store and I'll switch cheese, I'll switch cheese to them. That's not wickedness, it's just it's a different cheese, but yeah.

Kelli Gaylean:

So when we look at these things and go, where's my heart at and I do think that is such an important thing for us, whether we are a survivor or not to ask oh, for sure, for sure, and I think that that is like I would say, that most women, whenever they want to talk with their husbands, they're not like waiting until their husband is exhausted and beat down and a shell of himself at the end of the day, just so that they can get their way. It's really easy to be like, oh, you're just being manipulative. Well, that's not true.

Kelli Gaylean:

You know, I think whenever we're loving our spouse well, we are considering their environment that they have just come from and if they are in a good place to talk about this. And that's what I've had to learn over a long time, like practicing that awareness of learning my husband and what time of day is a good time of day to talk about things, because he works really hard all day long and when he gets home he's exhausted. And then the children are precious, sweet, relentless little babies and we get them to bed and then it's like, oh, let's just take a second.

Kelli Gaylean:

And if I was just like all on him, like why did you do this? But you know, that would be one thing, but that's not reality and I don't think that that is reality for a lot of people.

Tabitha Westbrook:

So it just kind of helped.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, and there is a way to bring up things. You know that is healthy when I'm working with couples, and so if I'm doing couples work, it is with a marriage that is disappointing or difficult. Right, things didn't go as planned, expectations weren't met, there's a cancer diagnosis those are the ones I want to see. Or like, hey, man, we got so into raising our kids, we stopped being friends. I will counsel that all day long and six days on Sundays. I mean, we'll have fun with it, my version.

Tabitha Westbrook:

But when it is wisdom and you talked about the wisdom in Proverbs, right, and it says seek her, seek her in the street. She's calling to you and ask for wisdom. James says ask for wisdom and it will be given to you liberally and without reproach. And I think there is wisdom in when we have conversations and that is not manipulative, that is wise.

Tabitha Westbrook:

If I know I need to have a difficult conversation and you are super, super tired and this is whether it's a spouse, a friend, a kid, anybody then it's not the right time because they're just not going to have a wide enough window of tolerance or the capacity.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And so I want to time it to say hey, when this happened, I felt hurt, or I'm really curious about this, or hey, I'd really like to go to Disney World, like even that a conversation that isn't challenging or confronting is still best done with wisdom and that doesn't make you unpleasable and even levying complaints. And so for the sisters listening to us who have been told well, to say anything that you don't like is being a nag and it's like no, if they're consistently neglectful, if they are consistently doing things that are not helpful or are harmful, you absolutely should bring that up. That's appropriate, because relationships are mutual. They are not dominated by one or the other. Relationships are mutual, they are not dominated by one or the other. And I would imagine that when you bring up things that you are needing your husband to address like hey, this wasn't good for me that he hears you because you are not a relentlessly unpleasable wife.

Kelli Gaylean:

I think everything is connected right, and so an environment of safety invites conversation, and that is something that I have experienced in a really good way, and so I think that's how do you create that environment if it has not been what you've experienced before?

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right. I mean I think your spouse is actually safe so you guys can have those difficult conversations. He does not lord it over you. We were talking before we got started and one of the things that you talked about that I think is so beautiful is that he loves your flourishing. He does not find you too much, he does not find you too big, he finds you precious and he delights in all of who you are, lights in all of who you are. Even the things that are probably and like man, we all have them right Like the things that were super cute when we were dating somebody are like not super cute once. We marry them after maybe six months or a year and we're like dude. No, but love can even grow in those quirky spaces and he, he lets you be you and I think that is one of the things. Like he doesn't stifle you, at least not that I've ever seen, or not that you've ever told me.

Kelli Gaylean:

I grew up in a home where my dad was a squasher and that was really hard to recover from and I think I just had a terrible expectation of what it was going to be like to be married to a man. So I I was like nervous to get married. I mean I could not have helped myself.

Kelli Gaylean:

I was so in love with Joe and Gallion, but I was nervous about that. What is it going to be like to be married to a man? Is he going to become this? And so I was guarded a little bit at first in marriage, and that has something that, honestly, has only grown. At first it was oh, I delight in you because of this or that, oh, you're beautiful, I don't know. Three, four years I've had opportunities to disciple women and speak and do and write a book. I mean things that are like way outside of my comfort zone, and I just cannot even tell you how encouraging and sweet it has been for him to not even flinch. He has just celebrated every second of it, like, yes, do it Go. I'm so proud of you. You did amazing at this. I loved what you said.

Kelli Gaylean:

My husband is not a loud man. He's quiet, just by nature. He's an introvert, little shy, sweet, sweet personality, but he is stubborn and deep and he feels things really deeply and so he is so worth waiting for. But you have to let it cook and let him draw it out a little bit, a little bit at a time, and that is very different, because I'm I'll just be like a splat, like hey, here I am, and so it has been so neat, like this thing that I have worried about. Hey, here I am is so loud and can feel other people might think it's obnoxious Am I too much? And he's like no, you keep on going. He loves it and that has been one of the sweetest gifts of these last few years. I mean, we're in our 40s. I think once you hit your 40s you feel like you're on the downward and it has been so cool to see him just be like absolutely yes, all the way.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Which I think is just absolutely beautiful and the way good marriages are right. It doesn't mean that you guys don't ever have difficulty or challenges or any of that we all do, but the fact that he just celebrates your flourishing is so good he's not threatened by it.

Kelli Gaylean:

It's not about him, right?

Tabitha Westbrook:

It's not a reflection on him Right, it doesn't diminish it. Yeah, one of the things I say often is I will not bow to a man who is afraid that their light is going to be dimmed. But also, they don't have to dim their light, right, because we can all shine brightly in the way that God created us, whether that's introverted, extroverted, more forward-facing, less forward-facing, right. The body of Christ has a lot of parts and they all matter, but I don't have to dim my light, so I mean we'll feel better. The good men, the men who are secure in Christ and secure in who they are created to be, are going to celebrate it and they're going to shine brightly as well, and that is a really beautiful thing. And it isn't about who's winning, it's about are we loving well, are we flourishing? Are we following God? What are we doing? How are we raising our babies, if we have babies, or how are we raising our fur babies? That can also be hotly contended sometimes you know, yeah.

Tabitha Westbrook:

But you know, I think that is the beauty, though, also of understanding that scripture, because then you don't have to play soft with your spouse either. Like you said that that set you free, like when you understood, like, oh, I'm not that woman. First of all, that we are all afraid to be that woman means it has been language very poorly. Yeah, we should always want to be holy. The scripture calls us to that. But the fact that, like it is the worst thing that we could do as a female is say stuff is concerning, because God gave us voices. We are made image bearers of the living God, just like men, and we are evidencing some piece of the character of Christ in ourselves, and so using our voice is very much different than being relentlessly unpleasable.

Kelli Gaylean:

And when scripture is misused like that, we miss out on the goodness that can be in the body of Christ that is carried by women like Deborah, who was in this strong leadership position and she took care of business and she encouraged the people around her and she walked in wisdom and she was a huge, valuable part of the nation of Israel and cared for them as a mother and I celebrate that so much and I'm so grateful for that. But I also think about, like the women who are not mentioned quite as much. But I also think about, like the women who are not mentioned quite as much, but how they are mentioned. And they saw a need and they fulfilled it. They saw their need and they asked for what they needed. Jael saw a need, she saw opportunity and she took care of it. She ended the tyranny of Sisera terrorizing the women of Israel and also the men, when I think of, like the daughters of Zelophehad. They saw a need. They saw, oh, we're not going to be cared for if we don't ask for what we need. And so they went and they asked in a respectful, kind way, but also they said, hey, this is a need and we're here, we have a need. They weren't afraid to speak up.

Kelli Gaylean:

I feel like Mary Magdalene did that. She was so broken. She was so broken and her need was right there and she went. When she found a place that her need could be fulfilled, she went to him, she went to Christ. We had Rahab. She saw that the Lord was right there and when she had the opportunity she grabbed onto him and she professed that he is the Lord and she did not hold back. We have Michael, who was so courageous and had a really hard time, but she did what was needed in the moment for David, and then it didn't pay. He took her from the next husband and it made her so bitter. And it's like show up, show up, because when we ask for what we need, nine times out of ten the Lord is right there, ready to meet us, and when we don't, we suffer in bitterness.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, absolutely. And there are so many different presentations, like you're saying, of women in Scripture, and we do tend to talk about the stronger ones, like the Ruth and the Deborah and all of that, but there are millions who are unnamed and the Deborah and all of that, but there are millions who are unnamed and they are still part of that great cloud of witnesses. And I think about that and I think about who are the women that we see in our lives now that are part of that great cloud, that are serving and following faithfully, and not the ones who are being doormats. We got to get them out, man. That's not cool.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Jesus did not say thou shalt be a doormat in an abusive relationship or coercively controlling relationship. That is not what he's asking. That is not suffering for Christ. That's baloney, frankly. But there are many wonderful women that we can look to and say they are loving well, they're faithful. They are part of that great cloud of witnesses. Some are going to be more speaky-uppy than others and some are going to be more quiet than others, and we need them all. We need them all.

Kelli Gaylean:

But it's not a crime to see a need and meet it, and it's not a crime to see a need in your own life and ask for it Right in your own life and ask for it Right, especially if you have someone who promised the Lord he was going to be your partner until he dies. You promised the Lord he was going to love you until he dies. Like that, that should, hopefully, is a safe person to ask for those things.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, I mean it says that you're supposed to love your wife like you love your own body. You're supposed to not hurt your wife. Speak harshly to your wife Like there's a lot said about how to treat a wife in scripture. Frankly, you know quite a lot more than is said about how to treat a husband, incidentally and not that we shouldn't treat spouses, friends, everyone, with honor and respect Right, we should absolutely do that. We are supposed to treat others the way that we ourselves want to be treated. We are supposed to be holy, for the Lord is holy. We are supposed to be servants and power under or power with, never power over, as humans. Right, submit one to another is in Ephesians before the whole. Submit to your husband's verse, and there's just a lot of goodness when the body of Christ functions the way God intended and we don't distort scripture. And that is like one of the most important reasons to understand it for yourself, because then no one can use it against you, no one can weaponize it.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I think if I can't imagine this ever coming out of your husband's mouth, to be honest, if he was just like, oh my gosh, you're being the nagging wife, you'd be like I am not, because I know what that means. So how do we help pastors Because? So how do we help pastors? Because, man, I grew up in the church. I've been in multiple denominations over time. This is not single denominational issue, right, this is like the evangelical church of America, to be honest, and maybe other places, but I'm only familiar with America. How do we help pastors? Maybe language it differently, because I know you and I have both heard for half of forever from all kinds of pastors oh, don't be the nagging wife, or if your wife is nagging you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do you? How do we help them? Maybe language it differently and not have a joke that actually could be destructive.

Kelli Gaylean:

Oh man, I think at this point, I think it's a bad Christian habit. It's like one of those things that has gone on for so long that it's just comfortable and, I think, taking our thoughts captive and actually asking like, well, what is this word that I'm saying? What does this word mean? I think so many times we think a word means something and it doesn't, or we will just get stuff wrong. I use the wrong song lyrics all the time and my daughter is like Mama, no, well, that's so, or I'll say a word and I'll mean something else, you know, and so when you're talking about nagging, you might think that you mean one thing, but this is what that definition actually means, and it's really harsh. It's good for us to hold that with an open hand and give them a benefit of the doubt. These men are not saying this because they hate women. They're saying this because it has been ingrained in them that this is the way to communicate about this, and so I think it's really valuable to just ask the Lord what would you have me say?

Kelli Gaylean:

And something that I really appreciated was I was at a church service a few weeks ago and every single person who stood up and spoke and said anything.

Kelli Gaylean:

None of it was about them, none of it was about a joke and self-aggrandizement.

Kelli Gaylean:

It was about the Lord, it was about Jesus and what he has done for us, and that was so encouraging to me.

Kelli Gaylean:

And I think, if that is how I can live my life, I think just letting the word do the work, you know, letting the love of Jesus do its work in me and disentangle those webs of deceit and bad habits. And just what I want for my own self in my own life. When I walk in that church building, I want the people around me to feel welcomed by me. I want them to feel the welcome of Christ in me and in our church home as a church family. And so if I can contribute to that, then Lord, let that be true, let me do that. And if I am doing something that is not contributing to it, then Lord, show me and help me open my blind eyes and show me my blind spots and help me to see what I can do better, what I need to leave behind in my own heart absolutely, and I think that sometimes it is good for pastors and leaders to just ask how might this be heard?

Tabitha Westbrook:

How might this be heard and I know that I can feel it now from some pastors, are you kidding me? Like everything could be weaponized? Yes, facts, but there are things that are more weaponized than others. In fact, there are, like multiple books called Untwisting Scriptures by Rebecca Davis that do that, because scriptures get weaponized, and there are some for abuse and coercive control that are frequent. The Nagging Wife is one of them. The Verses in Ephesians God Hates Divorce which we all know does not actually say it that way.

Kelli Gaylean:

It makes you want to stab yourself in the eye. More than that.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, it does make me want to take the fork. Yes, and for those who couldn't see, if you're just listening to this, the eye roll that we just got was epic and I love it so much. And, yes, it is absolutely not getting edited out, because you're a woman after my own heart and I love it so much. And we should roll our eyes like so hard they almost stick when Scripture is misinterpreted because it distorts the heart of God, and so if there are ones that are more tricky and weaponized than others, then I think pastors should just go. You know, if this statistic is true, that one in three relationships in my church not just in the world in my church are or have been or will be coercively controlling and abusive, then one third of the men or women anybody, because anybody can abuse or be coercively controlling then I need to just say this isn't what this means.

Kelli Gaylean:

I think that's the key, like, knowledge is power, right Education is everything. So asking why practicing that lifelong learning? You know, yeah, if God hates divorce, why does he hate divorce? Well, what did he make when he made marriage? They were naked and they were not ashamed. They were walking in partnership, they were working together and it's like where there is perfect trust, there is perfect freedom. And we saw that in the garden. And who orchestrated that? Who made that? God did, and so when he made that and it was marriage, of course he hates divorce, but what he loves is what he made. And a person in a marriage hacking away at the personhood of the other person in the marriage and defaming the name of God, the image of God in them every day for the rest of their lives. God definitely hates that.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yep, and he came to set the captives free. One of the things that in advocacy class that we talk about pretty often is that God has a lot more to say about oppression than he does about just about anything else. There's a lot, and that he doesn't say just suck it up and be oppressed. The first thing Jesus reads in the temple when he unrolls that scroll is in the book of Isaiah. I came to make the blind see and the lame walk in the ears here and set the captives free. That's right.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And so when we look at the whole counsel of the word of God which is again where biblical literacy is so important If you look at the entirety, such a clear picture. Even the stuff that you're like that is wild and I don't know what's happening in Ezekiel or parts of Revelation and some of Daniel, like there's some stuff where you're like that is some imagery. I'm gonna have to study that a bit more. But the whole counsel of the word of God points to being set free from sin, from oppression, from death, and points us to Jesus. And I think when pastors in particular and elders and teachers lean into that, god does say that he holds teachers to a higher standard, which, as someone who teaches women and teaches as part of therapy I mean you're always doing some sort of education Like this is potentially teaching.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I'm terrified that I would not handle the word of God well If I am quaking in my boots. I would hope that every pastor who does this every single Saturday, sunday, monday, whenever you have church, wednesday, tuesday, I don't know that they would be terrified to not lean into the word in the way that the Lord would have us. And so that's just, I think my thought on it for pastors is always be teachable. I do know wonderful pastors who are very humble men of God, even if they have big churches. And I think sometimes large churches do get a bad rap and there's a lot of reason for it. But some are very, very good and some are very not, and some small churches are very, very good and some are very not, and it really comes down to the humility of those in leadership. Are you teachable? Are you willing to say I got this wrong or I misunderstood, or I used something flippantly that harmed inadvertently and gave someone with a wicked heart ammunition?

Kelli Gaylean:

Look, my pastor said, and to just know how your words could be heard and that's such a good point like just to not let yourself grow comfortable, right, because that comfort is so insidious. It's like you know that pac, that the serpent.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yep, absolutely, and it is so refreshing for people and it really does bring people to a place of like. Oh, I'm safe enough to question here and wrestle here when we make it a safe place for everyone, make it not a safe place for wickedness and not a safe place for domination and all the shenanigans, but we make it a safe place to be changed and to grow and to be loved well and to let the Holy Spirit bear weight through the word of God, on us, like. When we do that and it starts with humility and leadership, man, you're going to see the body of Christ flourish, because men and women are going to be free to be who they were created to be and scripture is not going to be used to keep people in a box.

Kelli Gaylean:

Yeah, definitely, and I think so much of this when evil does prey on the defenseless or the voiceless or the beat down, so much of that starts. We have a desire to please God. Right, it's like that desire to please God is so pure and something that can happen really easily when scripture is used in a manipulative way is like, oh well, this is what pleases God. And so we can cherry pick those verses and say, oh, this is what pleases God or that is what pleases God. And you see that in judges a lot, that the people of Israel, they would start worshiping the way that the Canaanites worshiped, but it was for God, it was for Yahweh. It's like, no, no, that doesn't please God.

Kelli Gaylean:

And so once again we're back to the story of scripture, like, what does God say? How is he characterized through the entire Bible and what really legitimately pleases him? Because he tells you over and over again like he doesn't want a sacrifice, he wants a contrite heart, he wants your motive to be pure, he wants you to be flourishing in health and in wisdom and walking with him to know him. And you see that all through scripture. But it's too easy to get bogged down in one or two verses that trip you up and then you're just down and you're like, oh, I can't get out of this. Yeah, you can, god is knowable, he, you can. Yep, god is knowable. He's not just lovable, he is knowable. And the more that you know him, the greater your love will grow.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Absolutely. I know my own life has borne that out, I think yours has as well that there is just such goodness, and I think that is what makes me such a lover of the word. I am a lover of God because I'm a lover of his word and I'm a lover of how I see him in it. And I told the story, when I talked about the need for biblical literacy, of a wicked pastor that dared me to read the Bible cover to cover, and it was what ended up being his undoing, because as I grew in Christ and as I grew in my knowledge of the word, I was like wait a second. And I don't think that was what he thought would happen. I don't think he would have dared me, but that really was because the word of God bore weight on me and I was like wait a second.

Tabitha Westbrook:

The qualifications of pastor and elder are this and you are. This is not it. Also, can we talk about the fruit of the spirit? Because one of them is gentleness and kindness and, bro, you aren't. And that gave me, through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, the ability to go no, I will not. I have questions. And that enables me now to both love my brother's well and my sister's well and to invite us all deeper into the word and to point us all to Jesus, which is amazing and beautiful. As we wrap up this part, because I definitely want to talk about your book what would you encourage women to do Like I know you're a lover of Bible study. What would you encourage a woman who maybe is a little bit scared, has had things weaponized? How would you encourage her to step in and find this goodness?

Kelli Gaylean:

I think, something I've actually recently heard. Actually, I heard Jen Wilkins say this at a conference. She said you're not going to learn something about God that is disappointing to you, like you're not going to learn something true about God. That is disappointing because God is infinitely good, and so I think that that is. It can just be a fearful thing, like when his word has been weaponized against you. We can fear the Lord in the wrong way, and reading scripture is what will build the right fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and so we want to do that rightly, and so seeing him for who he really is in his word is a huge part of that. So to go to the scripture and not be afraid, you know, I would definitely encourage you to read it literately, to know who it's written for and what was going on at that time, and see the context, but also look for the Lord. That's why I love the Bible recap.

Kelli Gaylean:

I think Terry Lee Cobble does a great job of setting the stage and saying so. This is what was going on at that time and this is what these scholars, this is how they interpret this, and then these scholars will also interpret it this way. And so you have just this a kind friend coming alongside of you and lifting your gaze saying this is my God shot today. This is what I saw God do today. This is the truth about God today, and I think just building that habit has been life-changing for me in my walk with the Lord.

Kelli Gaylean:

But I think I've had to learn the hard way that there are things in the Bible I don't understand and I need help to understand them. And that's okay, that's not an indictment on me, that's not lazy, I'm not dumb, I just need help learning. And so there's a lot of wonderful resources out there for that. So I would say approach the scripture without fear. You know, see what it says for yourself. If you read through Genesis, through the first couple of chapters, and you see that it really is all Eve's fault and women can never be trusted again, then more power to you. But that is not what I see and that's not what a lot of people who have spent a lot of money becoming theological scholars see. You know, people are not going to give their lives to studying something so that they can tell you the wrong thing, hopefully.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right? No, they're not, not unless they're real silly.

Kelli Gaylean:

But also, prayer is so valuable. Prayer is such a huge part of the christian life. I feel like the lord is inviting me into prayer all over the place. In my life right now I have teenager. That's that'll kickstart things.

Kelli Gaylean:

Well, you know, it's like the. Your prayer life is something to really steward and really lean into and not be afraid, but to go to the Lord with open hands and just tell him like I need you. I'm willing to dedicate this day to you. I'm willing to dedicate my life to you and I want to become what you have for me. But this cannot be it. I need you to show me the way, and so to wait for him, to like really wait on him and go to him and talk with him and invite him to talk to you.

Kelli Gaylean:

I think that is something that I'm learning right now is so valuable. Also like to give the benefit of the doubt. You know, I think, that we want to protect ourselves so badly and that the protection if the best way to feel protected for me is to feel control that well, I know exactly where that came from. I know exactly what he means by that, and then that is also shut down, and maybe I'm not calling him a nag are wise, but also opening my heart to wise voices and trying to heal from that pain and that ache and that suspicion, because that bitterness is not going to benefit you, it's not going to benefit your children, it's only going to benefit the enemy.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right the enemy Right. Yeah, I will say, when survivors are especially new at surviving and being out of victim, that letting go of bitterness does not mean engaging in a relationship with someone destructive. Exactly, definitely. So you can let go of bitterness and also not be their friend, talk to them, be in relationship in any way, you know. So just saying that for people, because I think sometimes people are like oh no, because so many women like want to do the right thing and it's already really hard. But also bitterness is keeping you from healthy relationships. Right, because you have been harmed and you're afraid it will happen again.

Tabitha Westbrook:

You know, this is where the wisdom of the Holy Spirit really does come to bear. There are good men, oh, I know.

Kelli Gaylean:

The benefit of the doubt. I was saying maybe the benefit of the doubt for a new person.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right. No, totally agree. I think it's such the middle path right, because we need to learn how to find those safe people. We can't just walk around thinking there aren't any. It's not truth. I have amazing brothers and sisters in Christ and amazing brothers Like I am not bitter at all against men. I love my brothers and I also love wicked men enough to call them to repentance, and so I'm not going to be in relationship with them. I am going to call them to repentance. I am going to speak the truth in love, but I am also going to be very careful, because of the work that I do, that not all men are that way. Right, I like that, I think.

Kelli Gaylean:

That's really valuable and that's something that I am. I am learning like I'm totally preaching to myself there. It's so easy to just paint all men with one brush for me and to just walk in with suspicion. Only suspicion and that's something I have learned very slowly over time is that it is possible to encounter men who want the same thing that you want, who want the word of God to be the thing that bears on their life the most, who want to know God, who want everyone around them to know God and to be able to flourish in that and use their voice and have a presence there and use their gifts and lead.

Tabitha Westbrook:

that is something I'm like very slowly discovering on my own healing journey yes, and I just will note you've been in a wonderful marriage for 20 years and there are still moments from your past, as you're talking about it right now, that are still still being healed even now, and so we're in my car trouble.

Kelli Gaylean:

Nothing.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, and I mean, like that's the normal of healing, right, there are onion layers that we don't even know are there until God peels one back and we're like, oh yeah, I got to work on that. Thanks Jesus, here we go, and that is such a good thing, right, and that's OK. So I want to normalize that too, because it is beautiful. You can have that both, and it is the now and the not yet, and we can trust God for all of it, which is super beautiful. And I think I will just call our sisters into an invitation of get into the word and the one I did on biblical literacy.

Tabitha Westbrook:

The Jesus Storybook Bible is a great place to start, if that's where you got to start, and just invite yourself to see the face of real, actual Jesus. And for our pastor, friends that might be listening, please listen. If someone comes to you and says, hey, that could be heard in a certain way, don't just be like, oh my gosh, I can't, please everybody Just say hey. I wonder if more than one person might have felt this and maybe I could just make a sentence like hey, this is what this means and I don't want to be flippant about harm, that's it, that's all really survivors even ask honestly. They just don't hand weapons to like the people who are harming them, and so just I would just encourage us all to like lead with love and kindness in how we walk, and I think that's the way of the.

Kelli Gaylean:

Lord anyway, and I think acknowledging those people is really valuable, really valuable acknowledging that, like the people that you're preaching to don't all look like you or think like you or have the same experiences that you do. You know, if you are white, male, middle-class preacher out in the comfortable burbs of America and there are single women and men, there are young women and men, there are older women and men, there are married and divorced and widowed. I mean there's all different people, and so I think that is really valuable just to are you seeing them in your day-to-day life?

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, absolutely. So let's talk about this book of yours, ma'am. It is such a lovely book and I am not. I do not like romance novels, I do not like fiction for the most part, but I loved your book, and so that is saying something that is like high praise on my end. But tell me what inspired you to write it?

Kelli Gaylean:

You know I love reading. I've always read. I was a teacher in our other life, before we had kids, and so I've just always been a reader and I loved writing, teaching writing when I was in the classroom and stuff. I've been in Bible study since 2010 now, and so I've been leading groups since 2011. And I've been coordinating the small group leaders for years now, and so I've just heard a lot of women's stories in those groups.

Kelli Gaylean:

Those single gender learning environments, those are the places where women are going to feel safe to open up and share or to build relationships where they could open up and share, and so I just had heard so many of the sad stories of women, and there are just these recurring themes. If you have a group of 10 women, you're definitely going to have somebody who has had an eating disorder. You're going to have somebody who has not been safe in her home. You're going to have somebody who has had an abortion. You're going to have somebody who struggled with infertility. You're going to have these difficult things. And so I think I just saw women and I saw during the pandemic how easy it was to just set aside someone whose story is inconvenient for you at the time. And so it was, all of these things were bearing on me and I was just thinking, and you sit at dinner and you look around the restaurant and there's oh, they must be on a first date. Oh it's awkward. You kind of like make up your own story.

Kelli Gaylean:

And so I just kind of made up a story in my mind. It was like it stuck with me. I couldn't get away from it. And so I thought I mean I could try. I mean I could just try. And so I did. And then I kept going.

Kelli Gaylean:

I had a couple of friends who I asked to read it. I was like I had 10 pages and they read it and I was like, is it complete trash? And these were people who, like they're in my book club, we all read, we all love to read. So I knew that they would tell me the truth. And they were like, no, I think you should keep going. And they were like, no, I think you should keep going. And so I did, and eventually I had a whole book and the Lord has been really kind about it. He's been really sweet to just let it land in the right hands and hopefully just encourage the people who have read it.

Kelli Gaylean:

The feedback has actually been really good, which is amazing. I mean I don't know what I'm doing. This is my first novel, which is amazing. I mean I don't know what I'm doing. This is my first novel. It's my first book. I've never done this before, so I definitely made a lot of rookie mistakes. But it's out there. It's on Amazon right now. You can buy it. It's on Kindle, it's in paperback. It actually has two covers because of a rookie mistake that I made, but this is one of them.

Kelli Gaylean:

It's called how Can it Be, and it is the story of a woman named Mia, whose parents forced her to have an abortion after a wild weekend in college and she experienced a fallout from that, the trauma and the grief, and this story picks up 10 years later.

Kelli Gaylean:

So she has done a lot of therapy. She has actually come to faith through a coworker and friend. So she shows up one Sunday at church and she sees that they have a new worship minister and it turns out that it's the guy who got her pregnant 10 years ago. They are just kind of thrown together a lot through, like different volunteer opportunities and things, and so he's just always there. So she can't just avoid him. They actually become friends and eventually fall in love. But telling him about the abortion is part of that and his response and his own pain and trauma and how he came to the Lord years after meeting her the first time, and so it's just honestly. It's a story about the love of God and how we are never too far from him to be able to be saved.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, and it's not like smarmy, stupid romance novel, right when you're just like it's a Hallmark movie with a bow on it and we already know the plot. It's not like that, which I loved, like you can have Hallmark, go watch it at Christmas, but go read Kelly's book. How can it be? Because it is really good and it's just a nice. It doesn't sanitize in ways. It's just good, it's real. And look, if you don't think that two people who once knew each other can get thrown together in Christian ministry, you have not done Christian ministry because, man, I've seen that. So many times.

Tabitha Westbrook:

The number of times I've had somebody sit in front of me and we are all just six degrees of Kevin Bacon, let's be honest, especially in the church man. So the number of times I'm like, oh all right, and that is the exact kind of story, is very high. So it is very realistic and I really enjoyed it. I really would recommend it. It is such a great book. We're going into beach season. I think it is a great beach season book. Or, if you are more of a mountain person, it's also a great mountain season book. Like, your level of pasty will dictate where you end up for your summer vacations, I'm sure, but wherever you go, take it with you, read it, tell your friends and, kelly, thank you for being here with me, for talking about this stuff with me and for just who you are as a human being. I am grateful for you, I'm grateful to know you, I am grateful that God said our paths should cross, and just thanks for hanging out and talking about Jesus and his word with me today.

Kelli Gaylean:

Me too. I love you so much, friend. Thanks for having me.

Tabitha Westbrook:

You today. Me too. I love you so much, friend. Thanks for having me. You're so welcome. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrookcom. Forward slash hey Tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.

People on this episode

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Tabitha Westbrook, LMFT-S, LCMCH-QS, LPC-S, CSAT, CCTP, CCTCP

Host
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Kelli Galyean

Guest