Hey Tabi!

What He’s NOT Telling You: The Truth About Therapeutic Disclosure with Expert Dan Drake

• Tabitha • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Welcome to Hey Tabi! Many survivors and betrayed partners have been ambushed with what they were told was a therapeutic disclosure of their partner's problematic sexual behavior or addiction. What actually happened was not therapeutic, was not a full disclosure, and left the partner more traumatized. 

In this episode, I sit down with Dan Drake, LMFT, CSAT-S, CPTT-S, CCPS-S, a leading expert in sex addiction recovery and therapeutic disclosure. We dive into what therapeutic disclosure should actually look like, especially for betrayed partners.

Topics we cover:
✅ What a structured therapeutic disclosure process SHOULD look like
✅ Common mistakes therapists and individuals make during disclosure
✅ The role of polygraphs in disclosure—helpful or harmful?
✅ Why waiting too long to disclose can create more trauma
✅ How betrayed partners can regain agency and safety
✅ The difference between addiction and abuse in relationships
✅ The impact of faith-based communities on disclosure and healing
✅ How disclosure affects relationship recovery vs. dissolution

This conversation is essential for betrayed partners, therapists, coaches, and anyone navigating the impact of sexual betrayal. If you’ve ever wondered how to heal after betrayal, this episode provides guidance, hope, and professional insights.

🔗 Resources Mentioned:
📖 Full Disclosure Series by Dan Drake & Dr. Janice Caudill
🌿 Banyan Therapy Group
🛠️ Kintsugi Recovery Partners

#BetrayalTrauma #TherapeuticDisclosure #SexAddiction #HealingFromBetrayal #MentalHealth #TraumaRecovery #ChristianCounseling #HeyTabiPodcast

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Tabitha Westbrook:

Welcome to hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here and we are not. Take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook and I'm a licensed trauma therapist and I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now let's get going.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I am here today with Dan Drake and I'm going to tell you a little bit about Dan. Dan is a licensed clinician. He's the founder and clinical director of Banyan Therapy Group in Los Angeles, california. He is a certified sex addiction therapist supervisor, certified partner specialist supervisor and a certified clinical disclosure guide mentor. He, along with Dr Janice Cottle, co-founded Kintsugi Recovery Partners and they co-authored five books in the full disclosure series. They developed the first full disclosure training and certification course and they provide the highest level of support for professionals, which I thoroughly agree with. In addition, they continue to work on new support resources that clients can use directly.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Dan's co-authored several other books, including Building True Intimacy, creating a Connection that Stands the Test of Time, and Letters from a Sex Addict my Life Exposed. Dan's a husband and a father to two amazing kids and two fur babies. In his passion to help sex addicts, their partners and families, restore relational, mental, emotional, physical and spiritual wholeness to their lives, dan strives to provide a safe environment where his clients can grow and heal, and his contact information will be in our show notes. And, dan, thank you so much for being here. You're like me. I call me Alphabet Soup because of all the letters, but thanks for joining me today.

Dan Drake:

Thanks, tabitha, so great to join you joining me today.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Thanks, Tabitha, so great to join you. So we're going to talk today about what therapeutic disclosure should actually look like when a partner is struggling with compulsive sexual behavior, sex addiction, problematic sexual behaviors, however you want to term it and what it's supposed to look like for the betrayed partner, so the person receiving this information. So you and I have talked about there's a lot of things out there in the news.

Tabitha Westbrook:

We've heard some things about what therapeutic disclosure has been for people, and I think both of us would say that's not what it's supposed to look like.

Tabitha Westbrook:

So today we're gonna talk about what it is actually supposed to look like. I have your book. I have the full disclosure books. You were one of my CSAT supervisors when I was getting my CSAT, so I've had a little bit of exposure to this. We've talked about disclosure, but in that book you outline a structured process for disclosing the problematic sexual behaviors to a betrayed partner. So, first of all, what motivated you and Janice to create this framework for people, and then what sets it apart?

Dan Drake:

from other. Thank you. I will just say I never we never set out to write these things the way we did, like we were actually working on another project and there was a chapter on disclosure and we just decided, hey, we pulled our resources and said, hey, maybe there's something we could actually use here. That was probably four years before we finally actually published the workbook, because we realized what we found was and I think this goes to your second question we found that there were some resources out there for disclosure, but not ones that we felt like were how to walk through this directly with the clients, written to the clients directly and then really helping navigate the different choice points along the way. Because I think why it has these books? They're big. Unfortunately, they turn out way bigger than we had ever expected, because what we realized is every couple's different and every situation's different and what disclosure might look like is different. So, instead of saying this is the one way to do it and this is the box you have to go into, we try to say the choice points along the way and how to best navigate those things for what you specifically need in your own experience. So I think that's what sets it apart.

Dan Drake:

We've really worked to choreograph the partner's side of it with also the disclosing person's side, so there's choreographed information back and forth, some exercises that correspond. So what we tried to do was to get disclosure guides the people that are helping support their clients more on the same page. I don't know for you, but I've just seen more often than not especially if you have two providers, two therapists or two coaches working with clients, even if they're CSAT, sometimes they may even be specialized If we don't have the same framework, I've just seen people butt heads and get in power struggles and I've seen it go really poorly and the clients suffer. So we wanted to ultimately help such a delicate process that can be so difficult and confusing and painful. We wanted to help support people so that it would be as painless as possible, that actually they could get the information that they needed and the way that they wanted to receive it for the partner.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, I think that's such a key thing is really. I hear you saying we want to care well for both people in it. Yeah right, I know from my work with both addicts and betrayed partners like it's such a delicate thing. You know, first of all, does the addict actually want to tell the truth? To begin with, it's on the list.

Tabitha Westbrook:

But you know, for the betrayed partner, very often it's information they don't completely know. They may know something. There's usually, you know folks come into therapy for this because there was a crisis of some kind, something was caught or disclosed or whatever.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And so when we do a full disclosure, maybe the addicted person is familiar with, obviously, what they've done and what they've been into, but the betrayed partner might not be, and so it can be very emotional, very traumatic, very emotional, very traumatic. So what are some of the most common mistakes that you see therapists or individuals who are doing these disclosures make in the process? And then how can that actually bring further harm to the betrayed partner?

Dan Drake:

Yeah, I was just thinking. I got a flurry of different things that I've done. You know, I've learned over the years. Unfortunately, some of the things that we put in these workbooks were things I learned the hard way. So what kind of disclosure are we doing? I think what I'd say the biggest mistake or biggest thing to understand is what are our expectations for what's going to happen? That may seem obvious, but especially if you have two providers working with a couple and they have different sets of expectations that they're preparing, I mean you're going to have a real big problem. The partner is expecting something and the partner's therapist or coach is helping facilitate something, and then what they actually receive is something different and there's a match with expectations. It's going to be a big problem. So I think that's the first thing and again, it may sound obvious, but I think we have to really clarify what that is.

Dan Drake:

One thing that we did with the workbooks was Janice Cottle put together a research study and we wanted to see the level of distress from discovery and then the level of distress from closure on a scale of zero to 10, zero, no distress, 10, the worst you could possibly imagine. As no surprise, the survey response we got discovery, and I might miss the numbers here, but discovery was about a 9.7 or something. It was about as bad as it gets. It was in the 9 point something. So really, really bad Disclosure. The level of distress wasn't nothing, it was like 7 point something. So obviously there's a lot of it's difficult, it's painful, to do a disclosure. One thing that I found really helpful, though, is what we also looked at what was the distress of the wait time between discovery closure, and that was actually like a 9.2. So for the betrayed partner, um, the weight between and every betrayed partner probably knows this, but a lot of specialists don't.

Dan Drake:

You know that the longer we wait where the partners, I know something's wrong, but I don't know the full extent of it and I feel like free falling. That's so horrible. So I think another mistake is waiting too long. You know, say, the addict's not quote unquote ready, which is tricky. When are they ready? Does that mean they don't have the empathy skills or awareness of their addiction and what the extent of it was? Sure, but how long do we wait? I guess that's the thing of fighting that zone where we don't have the drag out so long for the poor partner who's free falling and also we give a little time where the addict can get some stability before we do it. So that zone takes a lot of finesse and it's different for every couple. But I think that I've seen either we're going to just do it tomorrow. I mean, of course, of course the partner needs this information yesterday, they need it right now.

Dan Drake:

But to do this well, especially if we're like, I advocate for a written disclosure it takes me roughly six to eight weeks to prepare somebody for it, sometimes less, sometimes more, but there's a lot that we do in the prep. So I think, yeah, doing this, knowing that it's going to take some extra time to prepare a document, helping someone, support on the addict side to prepare a written document for the partner. To also vet questions what questions do they have? What do they need? We do a needs assessment for the partner. What are the things I need and don't want from this? That helps tremendously on the addict side.

Dan Drake:

If I'm preparing the disclosing person, it helps me so much to know what does the partner want, what don't they want, because last thing I want is to try to make. We want to give as much choice back to the partner because that's what was taken from them. Last thing I do is start making choices for what I think the partner would want to know or not want to know. I don't want to be in that position, so we try to do that and navigate that as well as possible. So there's a bunch more. You know, I've learned along the way, but that's at least a couple.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, I think one of the important things I'm hearing is we give choice back to the partner that was taken from them, and I think that is absolutely huge and every betrayed partner that I've ever spoken with ever that's a big deal. You know, what do you want to know and what would be helpful? And I think that's where the person getting the disclosure to the person receiving it, those two therapists or coaches, they need to be talking to each other and there has to be a real understanding there of like we're about to say really hard things to the betrayed partner and is that person going to be a real understanding there of like we're about to say really hard things to the betrayed partner and is that person going to be okay? Are we taking care of them well? And I think that is a piece that I hear getting missed a ton. Like they are told what they can do when they receive the disclosure, including what their facial expressions might be able to be, and or what they can say or not.

Dan Drake:

Say yeah, right, and it's like man.

Tabitha Westbrook:

That's very unfair and inappropriate in a million ways to this person who has had the rug literally pulled out from under them in so many ways.

Dan Drake:

I agree. I mean even to the point. So I have a general process of how I do disclosures. But I think all of us doing this have to have humility. Where, let's say, I'm preparing the disclosing person, that partner is the expert in what they're, they're working with someone who's the expert and will want to know and don't want to know, and that's sometimes that's a tricky target because sometimes I need to know everything. So figuring what that is and what I really need to know versus what do I want to know, and all those kinds of things. But to the point, where does the partner feel safest to do this in person? Is it their therapist's office? Is it somewhere not there? Where can we build safety? How do we come and go?

Dan Drake:

Usually I give the partner a choice how do we set up the room? Where does the partner want to be seated in that room and where do they feel safest for their significant other to be seated? These are maybe small things, but I try to do that. Where again, betrayal? You don't have betrayal without deception and lies and withholding and even emotional abuse that can happen in situations. So I want to restore some of that choice that was taken from a partner and the little ways as well as the big ones. So I think that goes. That's critical and being able to collaborate like you said is so important. And being able to collaborate like you said is so important. And I've seen people like this is my process and this is the way it's going to go, and almost having the partner have to sign certain things about what they're agreeing to and what their code of conduct is going to be, and I'm just like that feels pretty disrespectful and demeaning to someone who's been betrayed and traumatized.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, I would agree with that. It's not helpful to them and it certainly isn't going to bring healing. It's going to feel trapping to someone who's been betrayed. One of the things that I am curious about with the addicts I work with is why do you want to disclose Right? And I want to know is it because I want to feel better or is it because I actually give a crap about my partner?

Dan Drake:

and.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I want my partner to know what has happened so that we can either work toward healing or even dissolution. Right, this is one of the things I've heard from a lot of betrayed partners. It's like, oh well, they confessed and I know everything. Now I'm supposed to reconcile and I'm like that isn't necessarily truth. You need to know what happened Absolutely, but you don't necessarily need to reconcile. Because of that, Sometimes things are just broken.

Dan Drake:

Yeah, I'm just gonna use a building metaphor. I see moving forward in a relationship without a disclosure as buying a house without doing an inspection or appraisal. You're just trusting everything underneath, all the infrastructure is working the way it's supposed to and there's no dark secrets here that are going to pop up later. Most people would not opt for that, not opt for that also. But on the other end, if you do an inspection and appraisal, let's say that's the disclosure. That also gives me informed choice, what I can do. Not necessarily now I'm obligated to have to restore something that I don't feel like I'm able or willing to move forward. It gives you the information. It gives you the ability to make informed choices, I think, and sometimes the information.

Dan Drake:

I was going to say this, we might talk about this later the information doesn't come just in the information shared. It's also how the betraying person shows up in the disclosure process. Are they dragging their feet? Are they getting really defensive? Do they take this with as much openness as possible? I mean, you know, nobody's perfect but are they scared of the process and maybe unsure of it, but they're willing to do whatever it takes to heal and restore? That's a different attitude than someone who's defensive belittling, undermining, not refusing to do it. Those kinds of things do show a lot about someone's willingness to heal and restore.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Absolutely, and I think to me there is a difference between someone who is an abuser, who is. That is their nature. It is, in all of the ways that they deal in relationship, the person who's the partner is to be consumed. I refer to it as, basically, they see them as a couch that can talk and make sandwiches, essentially, and the person who is really truly addicted. They are not, overall, an abuser.

Tabitha Westbrook:

They may have been abusive in their addiction, without question, and they are harmful, very harmful to their partner, but there is a brokenness and a oh my gosh, I don't want to do this. There is almost a relief in getting caught in some ways and even though they're scared, they're willing to be transparent, even if it's in some ways, imperfect. Now, I'm not saying I think disclosure should be as close to everything as humanly possible, because the worst thing for betrayed partners and then there's this six months later, right, I do think it should be very thorough. But also what that posture of coming in to the partner and the humility of, yeah, I did these things and I hurt you deeply. I call it, with the guys I work with, sitting in the suck.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Sometimes you just got to sit in the sack and you got to own your stuff because that's the only way things are going to change and have a shot at getting better. And even then you know the betrayed partner gets to hear it and decide then what they do with it. And there might be things. I mean if you have found out that your partner of 20 years has been getting prostitutes and all kinds of things, been a swinger behind your back, spent your kid's college tuition yeah, account.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, there may be no coming back relationally from that. You know, just because they were transparent that's good for their own soul. Regardless, it's always good to disclose and be transparent for your own soul. That doesn't mean your relationship will survive.

Dan Drake:

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. I get this a decent amount from people the betraying person, the addict. Their big core fear is and it's linked to their own negative core beliefs, probably from early on, from their own experiences I'm bad, defective, unworthy, unlovable, all those kinds of things, and so I'm going to hide these things about me that I'm so ashamed of, because if you really knew all of me, there's no way you'd stay with me. So there's this core fear that most addicts have. I mean, I will just say to empathize with the person doing the disclosing. It's really scary because you're saying trust me, by sharing this stuff, it's actually going to help potentially restore your relationship. More often than not, couples heal after doing a successful disclosure, not split. I don't know percentages, but I don't have that in front of me but more often than not the couples make it because there's a willingness to build honesty back and truth in the relationship.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And I think, for betrayed partners again, it's how the betrayer shows up. Do they own their stuff? Do they answer honestly, with humility, even if it's difficult, even if it's scary? I would say yes, those relationships have a shot. They're probably not abusers. Overall Right, you're right.

Dan Drake:

Right? Well, that's what I was going to say, that the core fear that the addicts have I'm going to share all this and I don't know there's no guarantee that my partner is going to stay with me. Sometimes people try to control that outcome and say you have to stay for a certain time period. But anyone that's sharing that with me, that fear that I'm going to share all this stuff and leave me. I also have to say well, you, you both, have to walk forward in some kind of faith, because if your partner's moving forward in this relationship, there's no guarantee you you can give that says I will never do this again. So the partner has to have that fear too on some level, that you are committed to your recovery program, that you won't continue to act out. So there are fears both ways.

Dan Drake:

I think that's what makes the relationship beautiful and healthy to heal from this, because we've walked forward in those things and there's been reassurances and we've built some security and safety back and trust back in relationships. So now it's actually stronger, but it's it's a delicate time. We're talking about disclosure. It's really delicate for couples in this place.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, absolutely. But I think the time piece of it is I work in a lot of faith-based circles and there is, for whatever reason, this truncation of time that I see all the time where it's like, okay, so we did this piece, now you gotta go do this piece Now, we're gonna go do this piece over here and everybody's gonna be happy and we're gonna be done with you in six months. And I'm like, oh, that's hilarious, because, first of all, the research doesn't even bear that out, not even a little bit. It's like three to years for infidelity alone to truly recover when everybody's doing the work.

Dan Drake:

When it's yeah, yeah, that's that's under, you know, that's that's good situation. Sometimes it just prolongs indefinitely.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right, and so I think, especially in the faith-based communities oh well, you know, the betrayer repented, they told you everything like let's move on, go have sex. And that is not good, that's not good practice, it does not care well for the betrayer or the betrayed, to be honest, at all, because you're asking the betrayed partner to do something they may feel very unsafe in in a very intimate setting, and you're asking the betrayer even to enter into something they may not be ready for, which I don't think a lot of people think about. I've worked with guys who are like I'm not sure I'm ready because, like my whole mentality was, every 72 hours I have to have sex or I'm going to go look at porn. So I've been looking at porn and doing all this stuff and so I'm not sure I'm ready to enter in, and they feel pressure and I don't think that faith-based communities really think all that stuff through because there's not enough conversation about it.

Dan Drake:

I agree, totally agree, and I think this and I'm doing a couple of talks this year. The other F word forgiveness.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yes.

Dan Drake:

That's a big one and I'm all for forgiveness, but not cheap forgiveness. I mean forgiveness comes. Think of the three. Judith Herman APSATS uses a three-phase model of healing.

Dan Drake:

First, safety stabilization model of healing, first safety stabilization. We have to build safety stabilization back in the relationship, which which can take some time to get our footing back and build some stabilization. Then the next phase is remembrance and mourning, right like that piece. That can take a while because the partner needs space and time to heal, to understand for themselves, understand the different dimensions of impact and then also to walk through this with the betraying person and that they fully are seen and known, and that can time too. So these things don't we can't rush the healing, it just takes. It does take some time and it takes active engagement to be able to actually do the healing. But yeah, I've definitely seen that this push to like well, we want the happy story, the happy ending story or the redemption story. We always want to go towards that. But if it's too quick it doesn't. Usually there's missing pieces and usually the betrayed partner will suffer long-term because it's like covering over an infected wound.

Tabitha Westbrook:

You can, you might be okay, but it's that you didn't actually clean the infection out right, so yeah yeah, and I think, especially in the, in the church proper, there's not a ton of real understanding of abuse dynamics either. And so abusers in particular, who are destructive people who are destructive in all areas, they are real, manipulative and they're very charming. I always say I'd love to have a beer with the guys that I've worked with in that space. I wouldn't marry any of them. So a lot of the betrayed partners are like no, you don't understand, there are other things here, and the church or even the coaches or therapists are focusing just on the addiction and not the whole relationship and looking at hey, are there other things we need to know?

Tabitha Westbrook:

I know I presented at the PSAP conference back in November of 2024. And that's one of the things I said for churches is you need to have a off-ramp from just addiction treatment and support to abuse. You know accountability that's different. And then how are you caring well, for the betrayed Because that is an area I see get missed all the time is well, we got something for the betrayers, but it's like well, what are you doing for all their partners? And there's nothing.

Dan Drake:

Well, and it's. It is tricky too because a lot of the initial effort goes towards the addict, towards the betrayer. Because tricky too, because a lot of the initial effort goes towards the addict, towards the betrayer, because, understandably, they need help, because there's a problem here, so we're focused there. But that doesn't with betrayal. You're going to have betrayal trauma, you're going to have all kinds of symptoms and I don't think what people realize, like the betrayed partner may, especially early on their survival coping strategies, they're trying to make sense of this world, like it's really confusing, overwhelming a lot of feelings. It can look pretty messy and especially if the person's manipulative and abusive or abuser, they're going to push that a bit. They're going to make their partner look like the crazy one or the problem one and they're going to look good. And so you can miss that, especially in the faith-based community. You can obviously miss that too. So I hear what you're saying.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Absolutely. So let's talk about polygraphs. This is something that a lot of the trade partners in particular do not understand, and I hear a lot of feedback in survivor communities about it and A why do we even do a polygraph-backed disclosure and what role should it play Like, what is the purpose and what should we know about this?

Dan Drake:

Yeah Well, I have to say this. I just have to say this Even within the CSAT community, as in even in specialists, we don't have a universal stance on this. So I'm sure it's got to be confusing out there where you'll have people so adamantly saying don't do it for these reasons, and you have people that are like you know, we have to do it for these reasons. So it's really confusing. I never forced somebody to take a polygraph. I think that isn't ethical. I think we have to give people informed choices. Again, we give informed choices.

Dan Drake:

I've personally seen a lot of benefit of the polygraph and I can say why. And I first, when I got into this field, it felt like whoa, we're talking polygraph. That seems extreme. It does seem pretty extreme, but what it is? It's essentially. There's different polygraphs. I have to say fidelity polygraph versus forensic polygraph.

Dan Drake:

The point of polygraphs that we would use isn't to shine a spotlight on somebody and them, but it's not a gotcha thing, I knew you were lying. It's actually to validate the honesty of what they're sharing. That's the point of the fidelity polygraph, not to pull punches or anything, but that is to validate. I'm telling the truth here Because, let's be honest, if you've got betrayal, you've got lies and the person was lying, they were being deceptive. I want to believe that everything they put on this disclosure, on this piece of paper, is the truth, but they already have lied. So there's this instrument that we can use. Is another validation that this person is telling the truth and what they're sharing and that they're not holding something back or some things back. So that's the use of it, the main use.

Dan Drake:

There's different ways that this goes about. There's not like a universal protocol, unfortunately, for these, so some people, uh, they misuse it and, I think, give wrap to what the the actual process is. I've worked with a specific examiner for I don't know almost 20 years, and he shares his process. You know, it's not perfect. I think that's where people will get anti-polygraph They'll use I don't know if the meta studies, or something like 87 or 90 something percent accurate, not perfect.

Dan Drake:

You can have false positives and false negatives. What I always say, though because if it's the addict saying, oh see, they're not perfect, you can. You know false positives, false negatives. I always want to know well, where's your energy? Is your energy protecting yourself for this possibility, or is it trying to protect your relationship and what your partner needs for safety, because if you don't do it and your partner is saying I want this, you're putting 100% responsibility on the partner to just believe your words when your words have lied Right. Yeah, more often than not, if someone's being truthful and they're being fully forthright I haven't, I mean, I have seen some misses, but it's not. It's rare that someone who's lying will pass a polygraph done well and someone who's telling the truth will fail a polygraph. That's rarer. But yeah, that's the main intent of it and I think that the spirit of using them.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I'm curious, I don't know if you have a different take on them, but again, our yeah, I think my general take on them is, if I feel like the addict is is ready to be truthful and honest, I expect them to pass, and I think that's one of the criticisms. It's like, oh well, like a lot of these guys pass the polygraph. And it's like, yes, if they have a good therapist who's guiding them in the process, ideally because they fully disclose right, they should pass right, and if we've fully to them with a point of it and they get, what we're doing yeah.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right. So it is protective in some ways If I don't think somebody is going to pass them, to be real honest with them about it and be like man, it's going to go badly for you if we don't have everything, and so I think that can be some assurance if again, if they're done well. Yeah, and I do think that that's the piece that is a little bit hard for us because it isn't standardized. Right, you have to know your therapist, you have to know the. You're the betrayer's therapist.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I know that in in my team because we make sure that there's good wraparound care and if I'm being asked for betrayed partner specialist, I know who on my team is amazing at that. I'm good at working with the betrayers. We do releases, all of those things, and that way we know what does the betrayed partner need, what is that person going to need from their betrayer and all that stuff. I think it really breaks apart when you don't have that, or you have even a specialist who is not thinking about how will this impact the betrayed partner? Yeah, and I think that they're like anything. There's folks who do an amazing job and folks who do not, and so you can get into situations with that I think, that's where asking lots of questions and for the betrayed partner to remind them that they have agency.

Tabitha Westbrook:

They do not have to say yes, they, they can say I don't like this. I don't like what's happening here. If you really want to do this, like I want to talk to your therapist, I want to know if they're decent, sign a release. I think it's fair. I think it's a fair thing to ask.

Dan Drake:

I actually try to preempt that because I learned along the way I think I was naive, especially if I'm working with the betrayer. So I actually try to preempt that. We'll do a four-way meeting if we can, so that the partner gets to know me a little bit in my process. I try to keep it as safe for them as possible because I want them to know that I might be working with the addict, but I'm also a partner advocate. I'm trying to help restore If they're choosing to. I'm trying to help restore the relationship, which means I need the partner's perspective because I'm probably not getting the whole story from the addict either.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And.

Dan Drake:

I want to make sure I'm on the same page with them. So yeah, I 100% agree. I'll just one thing on polygraph. I'll just say for my experience, when we have polygraph someone's going to be going through the polygraph they just seem to do a more thorough job on the disclosure. They seem to do a deeper dive, they seem to be a bit more I don't know if invested is the right word anxious. They're definitely more anxious because of the poly. They seem to I don't know just do a more thorough job and sometimes, the night before the day of a polygraph, more information ends up on the disclosure document. Is that coincidence? I don't know. Is it their memory just finally got coincidence? I don't know. Is it their memory just finally got it? I don't know, but it's not uncommon. Yeah, so that's, it's been helpful.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Out of curiosity, what is your stance on providing the disclosure document to the betrayed partner's therapist in advance? That's something I tend to do so that they can look through it and go hey, here's some places that could be real problematic, so that the betrayed partner can be as prepared. So not giving it to them, cause I think that the betrayer absolutely needs to be the one to read it, without question because they need to own their stuff. But to give the you know other therapists a heads up on like hey, here's what's coming.

Dan Drake:

Yeah, these are all uh for. Yeah, these are all the kind of controversial points in our field. So thanks for doing it so delicately. My two cents I actually seen the field shift a bit. I don't think that was standard practice before, honestly, where the trade partners, therapists or guide got the document ahead of time. I'm seeing it happening a lot more common now. I actually welcome it. To be honest, if I'm on the partner side and I've worked with the other person a decent amount and know the work, I may not need it, unless the partner wants me to. That's another choice point. Does a partner? Sometimes I've had partners. I don't say I don't want to be the last person in the room to know this information.

Dan Drake:

I feel, like I've been in the dark. So I want my guide to be here with me fully. Yeah, Okay, More often that doesn't happen as often as yeah, I want you to see it because because I want to, you know, know what I'm, what for you can prepare like what I'm going to be in for. Or just did they honor my needs assessment the way that I wanted it? So for me, if I'm working with a betrayer, yeah, I usually give it if the partner is open to that, Because also, I want to see did I miss something? I try to cross-reference the needs assessment, make sure I didn't miss something.

Dan Drake:

But there's very possibly, you know, let's just say, for example, I don't know, the addict uses the phrase acting out in the disclosure document May not be a big deal, but there are some partners that do not want to hear that phrase because it's minimizing. They want to know what did you do? I don't want to. That just feels like you're minimizing the extent of it. I might not know that and maybe I'm preparing this document. I don't know that that's going to be triggering. But the partner's therapist may very well know no, we can't have that in there because that's going to trigger them. So that's the stuff that might come back. Okay, we can change that, no problem, but I might not know if the partner's therapist has seen that. So just things like that. I think it's another set of eyes to also protect what the partner, to have the partner get what they're really needing and wanting from this experience, as well as being prepared for what's coming.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah. So what is your stance on the betrayed partner? I'm going to ask this controversial question.

Dan Drake:

Yay.

Tabitha Westbrook:

It's real exciting.

Dan Drake:

What is your stance?

Tabitha Westbrook:

on the betrayed partner getting a printed copy.

Dan Drake:

She's seeing me squirmy. I'm a kinesthetic learner so usually if I'm in session I just tell my client. I usually need to take notes because that's how I process. If there were me in a disclosure, I'm not as much auditory, so if I'm the partner and I'm sitting in a disclosure, I wouldn't get the same benefit as if I saw a document and could write on it. So my stance is I think it depends.

Dan Drake:

I mean, what does the person do they want to? Is that the way they process their visual processors and so they can see it, do they? Ideally it'll be as relational as possible so that the adit can share this to the partner and we don't have, you know, we're not just buried in papers. But it's something I would talk to the partner about is how do we make sure that the partner's reading along with what's being shared, because they can probably read faster than what's the addict is reading verbally? I've had that where a partner's, like you know what I really want the document and that helps me to be able to see it. I will commit to and that just if it's going to help. I'll cover up what's coming and just work down that way. So I'm not going to read ahead, because then they're actually in the present. So I'm okay with it. I know some people are adamantly not okay with it for some reason, but if the person needs that to for how they process information, why why would I refuse that?

Tabitha Westbrook:

Right. What about them taking it home with them after the session refuse that Right.

Dan Drake:

What about them taking it home with them after the session? I don't usually do that. Yeah, so, and I made that mistake. Yeah, anyway, I learned that. Actually do a policy for that. I don't give the document out. What I usually do is we have a discussion about how we're going to manage this document. I don't want that partner to feel like this is the only time they're ever going to get this information. I'm not a big like shred the document right after disclosure either, but is there a place where we can hold it for a time period, whether that's in the therapist's office or something the addicts, whatever we talk about it? Because what I want to do is build containment. So I'm not going to say you can't get to have this information, partner, it's let's give you support as you read through it. So that's how I've handled it. I don't know there's different responses. It's a lot of information. It's really sensitive and I I like to have support while people are reviewing it if we need to.

Dan Drake:

so yeah I don't know your take I would agree with that.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I don't think taking it home is wise for a million different reasons.

Tabitha Westbrook:

But I I understand why betrayed partners, especially hearing that out of the gate until there's some relational equity and trust between all of the therapy team, I could see why they'd be worried.

Tabitha Westbrook:

And the ones I've heard the real pushback from are people who had really awful disclosure experiences that were not thorough, they were not well planned and they were like I was being lied to the whole time and I would have loved to have had this to refer back to because I was so gaslit and so lied to. So I understand that perspective. I think if it's done really well and the betrayed partners therapist or coach and the betrayers coach or therapist is working together, then any and you do build that containment, it's like hey, we're not going to keep you from this information, but also you reading it at three in the morning, three glasses of wine in, is probably not real helpful for you, which is sometimes what could happen. Right, and you know we want you to be well cared for. You're not keeping anything from you and I think that's really the difference that a lot of betrayed partners have not gotten.

Dan Drake:

Right, yeah, I always. If there's a, if I'm going to set some sort of guideline or I don't want to say boundary, but if that's the protocol for every oh, I want there to be a yes. So if I'm saying no, you can't walk home with that. I'm not saying no, you can't ever hear this information again or process it. And I can't ever hear this information again or process it. And this is the last chance you'll ever have. Not at all. I just want to build a support structure around that. So, yeah, I agree.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, it's caring, kindness, no-transcript folks who are not really considering all of the factors. In my opinion, I'll give that charitable structure to that that they are feeling so dismissed and minimized and they're over there feeling like they've been stabbed to death.

Dan Drake:

Yeah.

Tabitha Westbrook:

That has to be considered.

Dan Drake:

Well, I even use that. I think that the stab to death, like if someone had a major surgery. There's a post-op period and I feel like disclosure is a major surgery. In a relationship. There's going to be a post-op period and oftentimes right after if I have a major surgery, I may actually feel worse. I may be worse before it gets better. Sometimes it's with disclosure too. I think that's the other thing I would say to the betrayed person, and I have to be really clear. This is the starting point, not the finish line. Like some guys I've worked with, they think okay, I've done this big and I'm not minimizing it Like they've done this big thing, they've checked the box, now let's go on with our life, let's get back to the way things were. That's not how it goes. It's not how this works. So we have to rebuild something, but it's again. It's more fragile and there's a lot more delicate need for safety and containment right after disclosure for a period.

Dan Drake:

So yes no, we're not going. You don't just get up and go for a marathon after you've had a major surgery. That's not what we're doing. We have to have a lot more compassion and slow this down.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, definitely. Well, I really appreciate you hanging out with me today and talking through what therapeutic disclosure should actually look like that really cares well for both parties and hits some of those nuances that are really important, particularly to the betrayed person, who didn't ask for any of this and is being oftentimes blindsided by finding something or being told something or heaven forbid, in some instances the police showing up and that is such a brutal experience and I think that we as a profession can care well for all the people in the situation, even if they're not necessarily your client.

Dan Drake:

Yeah.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Whenever I'm working with someone who's been abusive, my mantra is the client isn't actually in the room in a lot of ways, isn't actually in the room. In a lot of ways, I need to care well for the safety of other people impacted by the behaviors somebody who is a betrayer or an abuser. And that's really important to consider, because there's another person or people involved in this as well so yeah, really love you being with us today. Where can folks find you, in case they would like to find you?

Dan Drake:

My business site is banyantherapycom B-A-N-Y-A-N. Therapycom. We also have with Janice Caudill. We wrote those disclosure workbooks. We have, and you said it perfectly. So Kintsugi, it sounds like a law firm. It's not KintsugiRecoveryPartnerscom. If you're looking for people that we've trained that have a specialty in doing disclosures, that's actually. We have a find a guide listing there. That was our point. We wanted to have a place where you could know OK, these people are coming from a framework, rather than just having to shoot in the dark. So those are a couple of places.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Yeah, and Kintsugi is one of my favorite concepts, because it takes something that is shattered and puts it back together in a way that is beautiful, because it's obviously the epoxy and the gold and you put it together and the finished piece is often stronger than the original piece was to begin with, and so for betrayers and betrayed partners that are able to do the work and move forward, they can have something that is wholly new and more beautiful than what it once was.

Tabitha Westbrook:

I think that's an amazing thing. I'm all for restoration and healing and rebuilding when it's possible, and when it's not, I'm also okay with that, right, right. So thank you so much for being here, super, super appreciative, and we will make sure all of your information are in the show notes so people can find you and find guides that can help them along this if they need it.

Dan Drake:

So thanks for joining me. Perfect Thanks, tabitha, appreciate you.

Tabitha Westbrook:

Thank you. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrookcom forward flash. Hey tabby. That's h-e-y-t-a-b-i and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.

People on this episode

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Tabitha Westbrook, LMFT-S, LCMCH-QS, LPC-S, CSAT, CCTP, CCTCP

Host
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Dan Drake, LMFT, CSAT-S, CPTT-S, CCPS-S

Guest